2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries

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25 ?7 2 ************ Topic 2 Wed Dec 04, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] (Forwarded) Sub: Race Unity: USA's Spiritual Challenge America has a spiritual destiny to unfold in this promised Day of God. The oneness of mankind has been established as Divine Law. We're challenged to establish racial harmony,in our lives and our nation. 266 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 1 Wed Dec 04, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] (Forwarded) *UP I'd like to start this discussion on the spiritual issues involved in the establishment of racial harmony. I'll be referring to "The Vision of Race Unity America's Most Challenging Issue", a document prepared by the National spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States. "The oneness of humanity is the pivot round which revolve all the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. It is at once a statement of principle and an assertion of the ultimate goal of human experience on the planet." Our great nation is composed of the peoples of every nation, culture and religion on earth. Our national motto is "E pluribus unum". We are the "melting pot" of nations. I think we can, as a nation unified in our diversity, lead the world into a new age of peace and prosperity. It will require a renewal of our national spririt and vision. That vision can become a light to lead the world. As long as we allow the ravages of rascism, prejudice and intolerance to flourish in our beloved land we are betraying our national spririt and chaining down our national destiny. Why is the establishment of racial harmony a spiritual challenge? It's because in this day and age, the Oneness of All Mankind is spiritual law. It's the prerequiste to the establishment of the Most Great Peace, God's Kingdom on Earth. Baha'u'llah tells us why we're here and what we're supposed to be doing: "All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, Mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth." Racism is a disease that has entrenched itself in the very marrow of our society. It's debilitating influence wounds us all. When we strive in our daily lives to recognize, control and ultimately eradicate it we each make our own vital contribution to God's Plan for this day. "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." - Baha'u'llah Let's consult here on this topic. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 2 Wed Dec 04, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] (Forwarded) The "Vision of Race Unity, America's Most Challenging Issue", a statement by the National Spiritual Assembley of Baha'is of the United States is available in the Religion and Ethics RT software library. It's file #893. You get to the library by typing m390. I hope you'll "check it out"! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 3 Wed Dec 04, 1991 MARTINEAU [dean] (Forwarded) Dan, there is nothing more important than this topic now. Failure of our nation to courageously address the racial travesty in our nation will have disastrous effects. I hope we can get some constructive discussion going here. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 4 Wed Dec 04, 1991 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] (Forwarded) Dean and Dan, I hope this topic gets the attention it deserves, as it is ob- viously of fundamental importance. I honestly had considered begin- ning something similar to this only a week ago, so thanks. :) I'd really enjoy getting some perspectives from racial minorities that frequent this BB. Do you think there is an organized, conspiratorial effort being made by the affluent white political and business hierarchy to marg- inalize blacks economically? I read a very disturbing artical to this effect recently, with this theory apparently having a dramatic im- pact on a large block of black's. Imo., as this economy faulters (as it will), an environment of healing between races will be dif- ficult to find. "Christianity" has so aligned itself with white, af- fluent Americana, it's voice will not be heard by the minorities. -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 5 Wed Dec 04, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] (Forwarded) Larry, If what you say about Christianity aligning itself with white America is true, it strikes me as very ironic, since I feel Christianity finds its most vibrant voice in the Black churches... I'm not familiar with any organized conspiracy against Blacks (which certainly doesn't mean there isn't one). I do feel, however, that I must do whatever I can in my own life to root out any prejudice I may have against any ethnic group. I try to make it a constant awareness in myself and seize every opportunity to make friends with people who are different from me. This is something each of us can do and which can have a very beneficial effect on society. A pebble is a small thing when dropped into a pond, but it causes ripples to reach far beyond the point where the pebble was dropped. By keeping this analogy in mind, it gives me a sense that what I do matters. It keeps me working towards the establishment of the oneness of humanity in the face of all our setbacks in the process of accomplishing it in the world. By regarding the teaching of the oneness of humanity as a spiritual principle, not just something science has shown, this would "make possible vast changes in the economic status of non-white segments of the population. Although poverty afflicts members of all races, its victims tend to be largely people of color. Prejudice and discrimination have created a disparity in standards of living, providing some with excessive economic advantage while denying others the bare necessities for leading healthy and dignified lives. Poor housing, deficient diet, inadequate health care, insufficient education are consequences of poverty that afflict African Americans, American Indians, and Hispanic Americans more than they afflict the rest of the population. The cost to society at large is heavy." (from The Vision of Race Unity) Somehow, we have got to get the message across that the improvement in the social and economic lives of minorities is good for everyone. It's not a matter of us and them. We are all us. Anyone have ideas they'd like to share on how we might accomplish this? Some serious consultation would be of assistance to all of us. Thanks for your thoughts so far, Dan, Dean, and Larry! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 6 Thu Dec 05, 1991 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] (Forwarded) Wendy, I used the word "Christianity" to denote the particularly visible religious body (of mostly European heritage) that has come has come to dominate what many people consider the "Church". Imo., a large portion of Jesus' followers lie outside of it's walls, and as you mentioned, can be found in numerous Black churches. Someone once said that Sunday was the most segregated day of the week. This has always bothered me deeply. The "Christianity" I re- fered to above is so woven into the social-economic fabric of af- fluent white America that it has created it's own barrier to reconciliation by having this identity. >...improvement in the social and economic lives of minorities is good for everyone. I really agree with this. What fosters the us/them mentality? What do ou see as the biggest source of fear? -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 7 Thu Dec 05, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] (Forwarded) Larry, Great points you made! I think the basic reason for an us/them mentality and our biggest source of fear is that we don't really know who we are as human beings. We have let our culture, our society, TV, or whatever define us and the definition is off the mark by a long shot. We humans are really spiritual beings, with souls which need developing so they can reach their full potential to radiate God's love in this world. Does this development happen? For most people, I think the answer is no. I once heard a woman who had had a near-death experience (one of the longest ones on record--20 to 40 minutes) speak about how all the things we think are important really aren't important and the things we don't think are important really are important. Our values have been perverted so that most people are enmeshed in materialism, racism, parochialism, etc.--all the things that keep us apart and keep us from recognizing our spiritual nature and developing it. I have faith, however, that there is a dawning awareness in many people that things can't continue this way. And, of course, I believe God has given us His answers if we would just turn to them. This is my fast answer (and probably not my best!)--I'll probably think of more later. But this is a start. I always appreciate your comments, Larry (even if I can't always understand them ;), so keep them coming, please. (I did understand you this time, though, perfectly!) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 8 Thu Dec 05, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] (Forwarded) *UP Larry, I think our society has a sort of conspiracy hidden within it, and I think you touched upon it in your second post. The "segregated Sunday" is one of the outward signs of what could be called a conspiracy. I think there are other barriers "woven into the socio-economic fabric" that function the same way. They take the form of attidutes and habits that subtely perpetuate racism. Many of them function on an unconscious level, in other words if society is doing something to us like constantly replaying negative stereotypical images of blacks in the media, which ultimately impairs the growth and development of Blacks and whites, Then this could be viewed as a conspiracy. I think that its a valid term to use. If one would put thereselves in the shoes of an inner city, black, male youth, one would certainly be inclined to witness the evidences of a "conspiracy" to withold from him the fullness of the "american dream". Yet many of these kids prosper. I guess conspiracys of this kind are the worst, because ordainarily well- meaning people can participate in them unawares, even the victims themselves! I'm so glad you mentioned segregated congregations. This points to a way for the faithful to immediately begin afffirming the oneness of humanity: worshipping together! Let the whites seek out and develope ties with the black churches. People we worship together, share in the religious education of their children, sit down to church suppers together participate in church projects and ministries together and sing the praises of the Lord together, soon become bonded in a way which will allow no sense of "us vs. them". As Wendy mentioned the "vibrant voice of the black churches", I have to agree. I've been attending black church services and other functions in the inner- city Black Christian churches and I have to say that that is where I've learned about Christ and come to feel a deep love in my heart for Him and His followers. Now, as a Baha'i I feel no separation or "apartness" due to my faith and low melanin level. Christian love has become a reality in my heart because I've stood up and sung the praises of our Lord Jesus with my black and hispanic brothers and sisters. Also my Love for Baha'u'llah has increased and my awe and reverence for the power of His Holy Words has deepened. Because I've witnessed first hand- I've lived; the reality of the oneness of mankind and the oneness of God. I hope that didn't sound boastful. I just want to share the joy in my heart that I know can be felt by all. This feeling of unity and harmony is so powerful that it can jump from heart to heart like a living flame. It's the reward for obeying God's Will for this day - to work towards the unification of mankind. When you have the feeling you just want to work harder for it to get it again and again. I've become a "love junkie"! Interfaith organizations are great vehicles for breaking down the barriers that institutionalized racism has erected. They also provide the structure for a people of diversity to work together to effect other beneficial social changes. I'm a memeber of East Harlem Interfaith, an organaization made up of over 40 congregations. Our next event is a Martin Luther King Jr. Scholarship Breakfast (on Dr. MLK jr. Day). This is just one of the programs the community of the faithful has instituted for the benefit of the larger community. E.H.I's theme is "Unity amidst Diversity". People just have to start recognizing that diversity is our precious national treasure. Each race, culture and religion has such richness to share. Abdu'l- Baha' has said: "Baha'u'llah once compared the colored people to black pupil of the eye suurrounded by the white. In this black pupil is seen the reflection of that which is before it, and through it the light of the spirit shineth forth." Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 9 Thu Dec 05, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] (Forwarded) Dan, That was a fantastic post! :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 10 Thu Dec 05, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] (Forwarded) *UP Greetings Dear Friends, Thank you all for your posts. They're friendly, thoughtful and sincere. I think we've started to roll, now let's build up some real steam! I read a thought-provoking item in our local "New York Newsday" in the New York Forum column, by Katherine Spillar. It was about police brutality and titled "Gender Balance is the Cure". It focused on the issues of sexism and gender balance within our police departments by cited the notorious beating of Rodney King by four Los Angeles police officers. It made me recall the anguish and heart-sickness I felt when the video footage was being replayed on TV. Ms. Spillars theme is how by increasing the numbers of women on police forces, brutality will decrease and community relations improve. ( One person at the beating scene tried to stop it, she was told to stay out of it. ) She explains how men's and women's views of effective policing differ: "men typically see policing as control through authority while women generally view it as a public service". She makes a strong case for improving the gender balance on the police force. To me, this is another aspect of the principle of "unity and diversity". Wherever we have an institution that that operates on exclusionary principles we can see how it deprives itself the resources a diverse society can offer. The circumstances of sexual equality, gender balance and other women's rights issues closely parallel the the struggle to achieve racial harmony. I believe that the two causes are closely connected. They are both responses to the injustices of the "old-world order" white-male dominated establishment. I think that consciousness and action in one supports the other. They are ultimately the same cause. Us (speaking personally) white-males must learn the sensitivity, tact and compassion to understand our changing role. We may be giving up the unearned power of our birth right but we realize that we gain a world of new , unlimited potentialities. "O people of the world! The religion of God is to create love and unity; do not make it the cause of enmty and discord. All that is regarded by men of insight and the people of the most lofty outlook as the means for safeguarding and effecting the peace and tranquillity of man, has flowed from the Supreme Pen. But the ignorant ones who are the victim of self and desire, are heedless of the consummate wisdom of the truly wise One, and their words and deeds are prompted by fancy and superstition." -Baha'u'llah "Say, all are created by God." Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 11 Thu Dec 05, 1991 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] (Forwarded) Wendy, Apologies for the occasional communication gap. It's bound to improve if the dialog continues, as I see it, :). I think you made a valid point by identifying a perversion of values as resting at the core of our spiritual immaturity. I have wondered at times if it's possible to experience the fullness God intended for our souls while having to function within the Amer- ican socio-economic environment. Imo., it stands diametrically op- posed to the value system presented to us in the Kingdom of God (one author described it as the "upside-down Kingdom"). I think the body of God's people need to portray these values in "community" so they can be clearly identified by those who have not yet come to believe or understand them. What evidence do you see in the world that people are becoming aware of the need for racial reconciliation? I'm going to be thinking of a list of contrasting values between the "world" and the Kingdom of God and how they relate to those who have been marginalized. Dan, You should be congratulated for the headway you've made in build- ing some bridges. People need to hear of the path you've taken, so their hearts can be strengthened to take similar steps. Please con- tinue! I live in one of the most segregated areas of the country I have yet to witness, primarily do to a great economic disparity. On the W. coast of Florida, there is a swath of wealthy people collected from all over the country that stand in stark contrast to some of the most retched minority living environments imaginable. This fact invariably transfers itself on to the Churches, with Whites and Blacks living out different, and separated spiritual existences. There isn't even a framework in place to deal with the problem, as far as I can discern (such as the interfaith organizations you dis- cribe). Very little dialog. Much fear. Paul said in his letter to the Galatians, reflecting on our son- ship through faith in Christ Jesus, that there was "neither Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female". Imo., all these types of dis- tinctions were crucified with Jesus. The resurrection faith is trans- cultural. -larry put to death with Jesus, but were not resurrected with him ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 12 Thu Dec 05, 1991 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] (Forwarded) Dan, >"men typically see policing as control through authority while women generally view it as a public service". Excellent observation, and also a bit of a paradox as I see it. In God's kingdom, *authority* is expressed in servanthood (i.e., be- ing at the feet of others). In Mt.20.25,26; "..you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exer- cise authority over them. It is not so among you, for whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant." Mk.9.33-35 adds to fur- ther to this principle. Imho., women imitate this concept of service more effectively than most men, who are accustom to "strong arm" tactics to gain control or respect. We need their presence in these institutions, on all levels. -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 13 Fri Dec 06, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] (Forwarded) Larry, On female policemen: From my years in the military during this age of increasing use of women as warriors, I have *not* seen a feminizing of the military, but rather a militarizing of females. Those women who chose the military and thrive in it are not much different from the men who choose it and thrive in it. A female colonel -- or a black colonel - - shares most of the same views of a white colonel. Did you notice the chasm of political difference between Colin Powell and other black leaders prior to the Persian Gulf war? The same difference exists between female military leaders and non-military female leaders. I suspect the same is same of police. As a minority, I regard the European handling of Christianity as repulsive in the main -- sometimes I wonder why Christianity was taken to Europe. Then I consider a Europe *without* Christ's moderating influence and shudder. Things would be far worse! ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 14 Fri Dec 06, 1991 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] (Forwarded) Kirk, Thanks for joining in :). I believe you've made a good point in identifying a "militarization" of women in institutions like the armed services and law inforcement. Outside of these type of agen- cies however, I would *generally* characterize females as less vio- lent, more willing to compromise and more service oriented. Imho., these are the spiritual/ethical standards that we need to see more of in any arena, and which the Kingdom of God will someday be fully comprised of. Maybe we need to examine the underlying philosophy of institutions that either create or demand personalities that exude strong armed, macho characteristics. They perpetuate the concept of power and authority that Jesus spoke against. As you see it, how does the White/European Christian model fall short of Jesus' message of reconciliation? Do you think economics rests at the heart of minority church/white church separation? You mentioned that things could be far worse. How could they be bet- ter? -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 15 Fri Dec 06, 1991 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] (Forwarded) How does anyone feel about Bush's refusal to apologise to the Japanese for our nuclear assault, and it's anti-oriental overtones? Great examples being set for the American society. :( ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 16 Sun Dec 08, 1991 S.GELLER [SteveG] at 12:46 EST We are still very tribal. We relate best to people like ourselves. The easiest ways to identify a fellow member of the tribe is by language and by physical appearance - race. It is clear that biologically, race does not divide humans in any fundamental way. We can and do breed with one another; we are all of the same species. The races of man probably are the result of isolation of populations and natural selection. We naturally cluster by race because that's how the races got started, and we need the security of familiarity. The easiest way to feel good about ourselves is to look down on groups of others. This is the fundamental origin of racism. It is difficult to eliminate racist attitudes, because of their tribal origin. In times of stress, people tend to cluster into familiar tribal groups; this naturally generates feelings of rejection and hate toward the other tribes. Racism is much diminished in societies which are economically secure. There is also a political and economic aspect to racism. People select other people for the high-status jobs, and they tend to choose members of their tribe. It is also useful to define an "underclass" to do the less desirable and low-status jobs; race is a very convenient way to define such an underclass. I don't think there is any organized "conspiracy" by affluent whites to marginalize Blacks. Marginalization is a natural result of tribal thinking by those involved. Basically, there will always be racism while people need to cluster in familiar groups, and to gain political power. Racism is much more fundamental than Christianity. "One-ness" of humanity is not very natural in general; it needs to be developed by making everyone feel that they belong to one tribe. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 17 Sun Dec 08, 1991 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 14:42 EST Au Contraire! >One-ness of humanity is not very natural in general< It IS natural. One of the problems when addressing racism is one of time reference. If our frame of reference is one year or ten years, then we could believe that racism has always been with us. Even if we go back 1000 years we would do the same. If we study the evolution of mankind over several thousand years we will find a gradual enlargement of humanity's largest fundamental unity of existence. Humanity began with the family and gradually evolved through larger family unity, clans, tribes, villiges, citys, states, countrys and now nations. We can now see clearly that the next largest fundamental unit will be of a unified planet. Each time one unit transitioned to the next is when evidences of racism are found. >I don't think there is any organized "conspiracy" by affluent whites to marginalize Blacks< Do you remember when African-Americans got the right to vote? If there is no organized conspiracy to unify the peoples of our world, then what is left? >In times of stress, people tend to cluster into familiar tribal groups< What group do you belong to? What constitutes a "person?" I always assumed that we know and love people by their virtues, not their physical appearance. In my life, in times of stress, I look toward those that love me and care for me, not those that belong to my "race." >The easiest ways too identify a fellow member of the tribe is by language and by physical appearance - race.< I think it's easier to identify those that will treat you with honesty and respect, love and caring and who have global vision and foresight in these troubled times. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 19 Sun Dec 08, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 19:06 EST Larry, You've raised so many good points! I strongly agree with you about the need for the "community of God's people" portraying the values of God's Kingdom. Yes, it is dificult mainfesting those values within our "American socio- economic enviroment". This is the nature of our challenge. Its going to take resolve, work, study and prayer. But let's look at the positive side: Just as people are becoming aware of the need for racial reconciliation they are becoming aware of all the other pressing global issues. They see how they are intertwined. They see how the world is shrinking into a global community. In answer to your question about people becoming aware for the need for racial reconciliation one evidence is right here: the response to this topic. If we foster a sense of community here, sharing insights, support, sincerity, trust and friendship, then we are functioning as an extension of the "community of God's people" right here on GEnie. _ NYC has its share of the glaring examples of economic disparity caused by the "color line" too. Fortunately, NYC has always been a place where people try to change things. I just want to encourage you to seek out like minded people in your locale. Why not ask God to help you find the people to work with in your area? Establishing the bonds of love and trust are part of establishing God's Kingdom, when we ask God for help in doing the assignments He has given us He showers us with guidance and confirmations. I'm sure there are those souls in your area whose hearts are yearning for racial harmony just as yours is. The reason and evidence of this is that this is the "Promised Day of God". The entire planet is vibrating with the onrushing winds of change. Hearts are longing for and intellects are seeking the reality of "God's community". When we recognize the Oneness of God, hence the common source of all religion, and the oneness of all humanity, then the outward signs of differences becomes the manifestations of diversity, rather than the causes of disunity._ "The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes join together to make a perfect chord. If you meet those of a different race and color from yourself, do not mistrust them, and withdraw yourself into your shell of conventionality, but rather be glad and show them kindness. In the world of being the meeting is blessed when the white and colored races meet together with infinite spiritual love and harmony. When such meetings are established, and the participants associate with each other with perfect love, unity and kindness, the angels of the Kingom praise them, and the Beauty of Baha'u'llah addreseth them, 'Blessed are ye! Blessed are ye!' ". _ "When a gathering of these two races is brought about, that assemblage will become the magnet of the Concourse on high, and the confirmation of the Blessed Beauty will surround it." --Abdu'l-Baha' (quoted from "The Advent of Divine Justice" by Shoghi Effendi) _ I personally testify to the truth of these words. The sense of being in the "community of God", of marching as a soldier in God's army, of doing my part to further His cause is never so strong as when shoulder to shoulder with my Black, Hispanic, Native-American and other so-called "minority" brothers! _ O God the Most Glorious! "God grant that the light of unity may envelope the whole earth..." -Baha'u'llah _ _ God Bless you all, Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 20 Sun Dec 08, 1991 S.GELLER [SteveG] at 21:18 EST Well, you may be right, Bob, that one-ness of humanity is natural. It does appear that humans originated out of a single population in Africa, and then spread out over the Earth while diversifying into modern races. It was "one world" once long ago; perhaps it can become so again. Racism in modern times is sustained by perceived "differentness" - religion, language, physical appearance. >> What group do you belong to? What constitutes a "person?" You find out about those things when you lose your job, get sick or offend some powerful group. >>I always assumed that we know and love people by their virtues, not their physical appearance. In my life, in times of stress, I look toward those that love me and care for me, not those that belong to my "race." For a good many people in this world today, they're the same. >>I think it's easier to identify those that will treat you with honesty and respect, love and caring and who have global vision and foresight in these troubled times. Well, yes. I actually agree with you that eventually all humans on Earth are going to have to think of themselves as one tribe to keep the planet going. But that is still a far-off ideal. Lots of people in Yugoslavia thought of themselves as one tribe: Yugoslavians. Now they have to think of themselves as Serbs, Croats, Slovenes etc. People tend to be suspicious of the "one world" idea because it too often ends up meaning domination by one power group, rather than world democracy. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 21 Sun Dec 08, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 22:00 EST Tribalism is old, but modern racism is relatively young. The ancient Egyptians did not consider skin color to be the dominant factor of who or who was not Egyptian. Nor did the Greeks or Romans. The modern concept appears to have been born in northern Europe and post-dates Christianity. I think Christianity was forced into an imperialist mold that developed in Europe. At that, it was a poor fit and tended to leak out at the seams. As for Bush's refusal to tender an apology for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it has yet to be demonstrated that the dropping of those two bombs was fundamentlly different from the dropping of any other -- or that being killed by one was any more horrific than being killed by any other. I read an article by the man who was the chief surgeon of the Japanese Imperial Army (who first investigated the aftermath of the bombings) which claimed that those bombs actually *saved* Japan. He said that the mindset of the Japanese people at the time would have forced the Allies to kill every single Japanese man, woman, and child. However, being obliterated was too ignoble a death to be endured -- it was considered better to surrender and await a better day. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 22 Sun Dec 08, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 22:14 EST Kirk, _ Thanks for joining the topic. Your observations on your experiences in the military are a valuable insight. I think its not so much a question of feminizing the military or militarizing the feminine but fostering a change in institutialized attitudes that will allow the positive attributes of both sexes to contribute. _ You're sure right about Europe without the benefit of Christ's influence! _ Your fellow world citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 23 Sun Dec 08, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 22:15 EST Steve,_ _ The only way of "making people feel that they belong to one tribe" that I know of is for individuals to live, think and feel as though they're personally members of that "oneness-tribe". That way their lives become living examples of the oneness reality and by example they attract others to join the tribe. Once you acknowledge in your heart the reality of the oneness of humanity, then your intellectual perception of that reality begins to grow. _ _ From reading your post it seems to me that you're a member of the oneness- tribe, in your heart and in your mind. Does it feel un-natural to you? I hope not! :-) _ _ Your observations on the roots of racism certainly ring true. I have to agree to agree with Bob: mankind is ready to evolve, rather is evolving, into the tribe of the oneness of all humanity! Can you see it happening? _ _ If we think of the US as a member tribe of the tribe of nations, what role do you think the US can play in "making people feel that they belong to one tribe"? Do you think that if the US, with its racial diversity, could present to the rest of the world a model of racial harmony, that it help others feel this way?_ _ Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 24 Mon Dec 09, 1991 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 00:36 EST Steve, Thank you for your reply. I would like to briefly address a comment you made when you said that >people tend to be suspicious of the "one world" idea because it too often ends up meaning domination by one power group, rather than world democracy<. Boy, you put a lot of room for discussion in that sentence. I whole heartedly agree with you. People ARE suspicious. People ARE very concerned that when the world finally does come around to recognize the inherent oneness in all things. People are terrified that what they have will somehow be less or go away if this oneness happens. In my mind they are concerned for no reason other than they are afraid of what they haven't realized will return more to them and allow them true freedom. For example, if I, a man of European descent, and my friend of African descent are (at least here in the U.S.) are not equal, THEN I AM NOT EQUAL EITHER! If one race is oppressed, then it is not allowed to grow and flourish nor will it make the kind of valuable contributions to the whole of our existance that improve our quality of life. If the oppressors continue to oppress, then they also will continue to be trapped in their own kind of inequality and neither will they make those valuable contributions. Consider music. I am a music lover. I have over 3500 records. I adore jazz, and I also love classical. They are very different even though they have many things in common. I believe, (based on my study of music) that having a good understanding of classical heightens my appreciation of jazz. My studies of jazz began with traditional African folksongs using call and response as a basic form. This form is found in much of jazz music. Learning about what's happening musically in Senegal, Nairobi (sp?), East Africa, Kenya, etc. intensify and dramaticaly improve my overall listening pleasure. I believe the same is true with culture. I feel it is vital to understand as much as one can about other cultures, particularly those found here in America (and you can't really do that without becoming friends with those people) before we can truly find unity. Unity IN diversity. Loving the differences. You asked what group I belong to and said that I would find out some things if I lose my job or get sick or offend some powerful group. I will be absolutely honest with you relaying the following. Predjudice and racism tear me up inside. I am of European descent (read white). My greatest joy in life is the pleasure and company of my friends. My wife and I teach our daughter to call our very close friends "aunt and uncle" as I believe in the spiritual sense they are. Perhaps the highest honor I can bestow on one of my friends is to introduce them to one another so that they can share in my love for them. Is this always possible? I think not. For no matter how many wonderful qualities I find in my friends, everyone once in a while racism comes up. Sometimes when I try and extend my hand in friendship to an African-American I am met with distrust and suspicion. And in a sense, rightly so. These things tear me up. They keep me from being truly free even though because I am white I can enjoy more priveleges. In my humble opinion, the issue of race would cease to exist if we would only invite one another to each others homes for dinner. With this gesture comes friendship and with friendship people become their attributes of spirituality, not their attributes of race. Sorry to go on like this, but this is a very real and dear issue to me. peace...... Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 25 Mon Dec 09, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 01:43 EST An interesting topic. I'm glad the Baha'is are working for racial unity. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 26 Mon Dec 09, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 03:04 EST Rick, Thank you for participating in the topic. If you know any others on GEnie who would be interested, please let 'em know about it. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 27 Mon Dec 09, 1991 MARTINEAU [dean] at 23:38 EST Steveg, I'd like to make an additional comment on your message 20. You suggest that recognition of the oneness of humanity is far off, and cite Yugoslavia as a case in point. I would like to offer the possibility that one of the effects of racism, or tyranyy of any sort for that matter, is to reduce both the self-concept and the collaborative ability of the victims. Author and lecturer Nathan Rutstein relates stories of very qualified African- Americans who, despite their recognized ability in their chosen field, still had to battle feelings of inferiority to whites. One such story concerned an African-American pilot with many years of experience who caught himself, during a difficult flight, overwhelmed by the wish that a White pilot was in charge and not him. These forces are subtle, but have far-reaching effects. Peoples who learn that they are not well regarded by the dominadt culture find it difficult to respect and obey leaders from their population when those leaders arise. Also, I would suggest the possibility that freedom is a necessary condition for peoples to attain to their full potential. I believe that these formerly oppressed peoples, wherever they may be, will find their experience of oppression a difficult obstacle to overcome as they join the human community. Finally, we must overcome any feelings of doubt as to the eventual success of humanity to live as one. The rapidity with which some recent changes have come should show us the nature of the exciting time in which we are living. If we do not fully believe that the oneness of mankind is an attainable goal, we might not strive for its realization with the necessary vigor I am very excited to see the spirit of friendly discussion of exploration in this topic. Dean ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 28 Tue Dec 10, 1991 S.GELLER [SteveG] at 00:49 EST "Sometimes when I try and extend my had in friendship to an African- American I am met with distrust and suspicion." That's the essence of racism - making a judgement based only on what someone looks like. It can come semi-legitimately from bad experience with people of the same appearance. It can also come from pure bias - making up negative stereotypes because it's fun. Basically, racism is stupid and thrives mainly among ignorant people. Racism is also popular as a means of justifying a privileged class. It feeds on itself, too. If you are treated badly because someone doesn't like your appearance, you are quite likely to return the treatment. This goes on between whites and blacks all the time. It only stops after people really get to know each other as individuals. Suspicion of the "one world" idea is really not related to racism. It is more an issue of political power. People would like to have as much local control of their affairs as possible. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 29 Tue Dec 10, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 01:44 EST Dean, Very interesting post. That story about the pilot was incredible. It really makes me realize just how far-reaching our attitudes and actions can be. Until we all take personal responsibility for the condition of our world, we will continue to suffer the consequences. I am also reminded of Revelation where it warns against being lukewarm in our works. This must be an active work--that of turning back the tide of racism which seems to be so evident today. SteveG, I understand the fear of a one-world dictatorship. Personally, I don't think that would even be possible. What is possible is a system which would be decentralized, based on democratic principles, and enabling local control. The Baha'i administrative order offers a model of this type of system. One of these days, you might want to check it out. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 30 Tue Dec 10, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 02:38 EST Wendy, I don't see the Baha'is as a threat. I see them as an influence for uunderstanding and peace. But sooner or later there will be a One World Government that will not have our interests in mind. Witness the Europeans with only the British holding back on a common currency. Watch for a North American Union in response. Talk to people. They seem to want a One World Union. It's an ominous trend in my opinion, as we have no guarantee that we will continue to enjoy what's left of our constitutional freedoms. I like the idea of local control. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 31 Tue Dec 10, 1991 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 23:06 EST Rick, >I like the idea of local control< Regarding world unity, I think that what we will see is a unified planet with all the inhabitants recognizing the sancity of human life, the fraility of our ecosystem and the desire to advance the human civilization. For an example (not necessarily a good one, but listen to the spirit of what I am trying to say) we live in the United States. For the most part the U.S. is unified even though there are 50 states, each with their own laws, their own customs and in some areas, their own food! The world could be the same way only instead of states, substitue countries. I for one am very excited about it. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 32 Tue Dec 10, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 23:48 EST Bob, I like what you said as it explained your position well. As I understand it, the Constitution is what makes the United States. It was a miracle that it was ever written. To do that again on a world-wide scale I believe is well nigh impossible for man to accomplish. For, example, the United Nations is not set up on constitutional lines. If not by means of the UN, how do we achieve this unity? Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 33 Wed Dec 11, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 02:15 EST Rick, Baha'is see world unity as what God desires for His creatures in this Day. Therefore, it will not be accomplished just by people trying to achieve it, but also by the guidance and Spirit of God. We're talking about the Kingdom of God on earth that every Christian has prayed for for 2,000 years, not some conspiracy to rob people of their freedom. Here is one way Baha'u'llah suggested we work towards accomplishing this unity: "The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world's Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories." (=Tablets of Baha'u'llah=, page 165) There are several important world conferences coming up in the near future where people will gather to discuss issues of global concern. I see these as forunners of the great convocation which Baha'u'llah called for over 100 years ago. These conferences will show that when people of good will gather for the benefit of our world, that great good can come out of it. I recommend you relax and see what happens. It's very exciting to be living in these times which, as the name of your church acknowledges, are the latter days. Everything is changing--I believe ultimately for the better. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 34 Wed Dec 11, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 18:10 EST To: W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] >We're talking about the Kingdom of God on earth that every >Christian has prayed for for 2,000 years, The Kingdom of God came to earth when God became flesh in the form of Yeshua, and Yeshua started His Church. ---Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 35 Wed Dec 11, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 21:53 EST Peter, Yes, but then the Kingdom went a little off track, getting a little indulgent. The Baha'is are correct in wanting to build the Kingdom of God because it certainly is not very visible in traditional Christendom. After 2,000 years you'ld think the mainline Churches would have gotten their act together with such a head start. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 36 Thu Dec 12, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 00:31 EST Peter, What do you think about the spiritual challenges of racial unity? Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 37 Thu Dec 12, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 18:12 EST Hello Dan: >What do you think about the spiritual challenges of racial unity? I know all human beings regardless of race, sex, nationality, health, intelligence, capability, potential, skills, beliefs, etc. are equal. That is to say all human life is equal, vital, and precious. My God, Yeshua, told us not only to love Him with all our powers, but to love our fellow human beings as we love ourselves as well. Please note, Dan, that in loving you I do not have to (for one moment) give any credit or due to your religious beliefs. I love you regardless of those beliefs, but do not have to give them one iota. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hello Rick: >Yes, but then the Kingdom went a little off track, getting alittle >indulgent. Human beings have gone off track, Rick, but Yeshua and HIS Kingdom of God have not gone off track. >The Baha'is are correct in wanting to build the Kingdom of God > because it certainly is not very visible in traditional >Christendom. Man cannot build the Kingdom of God, Rick. Although the Baha'i may attain its goals of peace between all, they cannot take their false god and place him on the throne. Only God can build His own Kingdom, and God started the building when God came in the flesh of Yeshua. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 38 Thu Dec 12, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 21:38 EST Peter, The King of kings needs a kingdom, and men and women help to build it. The original kingdom is hopelessly fractured and thus had to be rebuilt. There wouldn't be groups like the Baha'is if the original kingdom had not become impure. After 2,000 years it would be obvious which Church represented the kingdom. Something went wrong somewhere, possibly a general apostacy? Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 39 Fri Dec 13, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 01:24 EST Dear Peter, Thank you so much for joining this topic and affirming so strongly the oneness of all mankind. I hope that you understand that I love the same God that you do, just as I love the same mankind. For there is only one God and one mankind. Your love for God and His children is an inspiration to us all. Since God has revealed Himself to us in Yeshua and ordainined that we love one another aren't we challenged to put that love in action? "Racism is an affront to human dignity, a cause of hatred and division, a disease that devastates society." ( from the "Vision of Race Unity, America's Most Challenging Issue") I don't mean to imply that any of us are not fighting racism in our personal lives. My purpose in opening this topic is so that we can explore ways to expand our efforts by discussing it here on GEnie. The Kingdom of God is a reality, just as we are all created in the image of God. But as individuals we are challenged by God to manifest His attributes in our daily lives. We must make choices, exert effort and take action in order to let our spiritual reality shine forth. The same is true for the society of man here on the material world. For human society to shine forth with the attributes of the Kingdom of God, society must make the choices, exert the efforts and take the actions precribed by the Divine Physician. The US is a "microcosm of the diverse populations of the earth". What better place to demonstrate the organic unity of the oneness of mankind (by eliminating the scourge of racism). What better way to lead the rest of the world to a vision of the Kingdom of God on earth. How can we work together to eliminate racism and learn to live together with love, harmony and justice? Peter, with your deep knowledge of the sacred teachings of The Holy Bible, perhaps you can help us with sources of guidance from that Divine Source. The love and harmony we establish here can help us unite to promote the oneness of mankind. Then we are working together to establish God's Kindom here on earth. God Bless you and your love for mankind. "God grant that the light of Unity may envelope the whole earth and that the seal; the Kingdom is God's, may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples." -Baha'u'llah Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 40 Fri Dec 13, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 01:37 EST Dan, Very impressive post. Can't argue with a thing in it. If you are represented of Baha'is then I think that your group will grow and have alot of influence. Promoting unity is a very lofty Christian activity and I endorse it. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 41 Fri Dec 13, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 01:56 EST Rick, Thank you so much for your compliment. I've been reading your posts with delight, I have to say. I'd wanted to reply directly to you also tonight but ran out of typing steam. Let us rejoice in our Love of God and the potentialities of the human spirit. I'm so happy that I joined GEnie ( Wendy told me about it) and the posts in this topic have me glowing. More later, I'm zonked out tired (went to a function in Harlem tonight). God Bless. Yoour fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 42 Fri Dec 13, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 02:14 EST Dan, I enjoy GEnie very much and delight in learning about the faith of others as well as explaning my own once in awhile. I really don't see why people object to the Baha'is so much. I wouldn't mind some of you as my neighbors. Maybe our different faith groups could work on some community project together. I think it's better to be about doing good than dreaming of our salvation above. How's that hymn go? Ah yes: Have I done any good in the world today? Have I helped anyone in need? Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad? If not, I have failed indeed. Has anyone's burden been lighter today Because I was willing to share? Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way? When they needed my help was I there? Chorus Then wake up and do something more Than dream of your mansion above. Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure, A blessing of duty and love. There are chances for work all around just now, Opportunities right in our way. Do not let them pass by, saying "Sometime I'll try," But go and do something today. 'Tis noble of man to work and to give; Love's labor has merit alone. Only he who does something helps others to live. To God each good work will be known. Chorus Based on James 1:22,27 and Alma 9:28 Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 43 Fri Dec 13, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 03:09 EST Rick, What a terrific hymm! Is there any way we could hear the music to it? I'm a musician so I'd be interested. I play bass in our local opera and December has been really busy so I've been away lately. Just got back from a Hansel and Gretel rehearsal. We also did The Messiah this month and will be doing Die Fledermaus on New Year's Eve. A friend called today and said he was starting a new Baha'i choir. I think he might be interested in that hymm. If he isn't, I would be. If possible, please E-mail me how I could get the music. Thanks, Rick! Dan, Lovely posts! I sure love to read what you have to contribute. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 44 Fri Dec 13, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 03:36 EST Wendy, It is hymn number 223 in our LDS hymn book. The last time I checked the price it was less than $5 for the book. I have a number for the Distribution Center in Salt Lake that you could order one from. Or I would be willing to photo- copy the particular page and mail it to you. Most of the hymns in the book we have permission to copy for the use of individuals with no intent at commercial gain. There are a few that I cannot copy. Many of the hymns are unique to the LDS though there are the old favorites like "Onward Christian Soldiers". There are even childrens' hymns like "I am a child of God". And to top it all off -- they even have the British national anthem, "God Save the Queen". Once when my wife were the speakers in Sacrament Meeting I mentioned to the chorister if she would substitute one of the scheduled hymns for "My Country 'tis of Thee". I explained that it was the same tune as "God Save the Queen". When it came time to sing the hymn the chorister annouced to the wholely American congregation that they would be singing "God Save the Queen". They all stood up and sang the British national anthem. I was pleased but a little embarassed! Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 45 Fri Dec 13, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 20:55 EST Hello Dan: >I hope that you understand that I love the same God that you do, My God, Dan, is Yeshua. Is your God, Yeshua (also known as Jesus)? If not, then we do not worship the same God. >Since God has revealed Himself to us in Yeshua and ordainined that >we love one another aren't we challenged to put that love in >action? Yes. We are challenged to move from a human (self)-centered way of thinking to a God-centered way of thinking. We are challenged to give all we have to Yeshua and let the love of Yeshua flow through us unrestricted. >I don't mean to imply that any of us are not fighting racism inour >personal lives. My purpose in opening this topic is so that we can >explore ways to expand our efforts by discussing it here on GEnie. You are correct, Dan, in bringing this topic to light here on GEnie. We all need to realize all humans are equal, all human beings need love and compassion and understanding. >But as individuals we are challenged by God to manifest His >attributes in our daily lives. Correct. Yeshua told us to be the light and salt of the earth. To become a reflection of His light and flavor so that others may see and feel the true love of God. We are not to hide this light under the bed; we are to let it shine forth for all to see that they may come to Yeshua. >The US is a "microcosm of the diverse populations of the earth". >What better place to demonstrate the organic unity of the oneness >of mankind (by eliminating the scourge of racism). Correct. >How can we work together to eliminate racism and learn to live >together with love, harmony and justice? By seeking the pattern of experiences we have in common to share. Find the pattern that exists, find the groups of people who share the pattern, and some how get them together. We have all gone through trials and tribulations, and all of us have something to share from the experiences of going through them. Although it can be said misery loves company, the truth of the matter is that by sharing the miseries and the joys we have shared, more people will probably see the sharing rather than the color or creed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hello Rick: >The King of kings needs a kingdom Yeshua, the King of Kings, has a kingdom. Yeshua stated to Simon Peter the following, Rick: Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Yeshua stated "the gates of hell shall not prevail..." against His Church which is the Kingdom of God. Although you may believe the Kingdom of God to be fractured, every thing happens at God's appointed time. >There wouldn't be groups like the Baha'is if the original kingdom >had not become impure. Yeshua foretold of false preachers, false christs, and so on. Everything that is occuring in today's times has been foretold, Rick. >After 2,000 years it would be obvious which Church represented the >kingdom. You are looking for a physical church, Rick. I see the Body of Christ. >Something went wrong somewhere, possibly a general apostacy? The signs of the times. ---Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 46 Sat Dec 14, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 02:35 EST Re: Message 45 Peter, Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. I enjoy your thoughtful replies. > Yeshua foretold of false preachers, false christs, and so on. Everything > that is occuring in today's times has been foretold, Rick. I agree, including: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV NewT:2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) In your opinion, has the "falling away" happened yet? Has the "man of sin" been revealed? Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 47 Sat Dec 14, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 11:27 EST Hello Rick: >for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away >first, Which is why I stated the events taking place today have been foretold. >In your opinion, has the "falling away" happened yet? Has the "man >of sin" been revealed? Is happening. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 48 Sat Dec 14, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 12:29 EST To get back on topic, it just occurred to me that the "man of sin" could be symbolic for racism. It seems to me that racism is so pervasive and obvious in the world today, and so evil, one could say it has been revealed for everyone to see. As Peter says, it "is happening." Recently in New Hampshire, BTW, a group of Baha'is were having a Race Unity program out in a park with entertainment, etc. The Ku Klux Klan demonstrated there, just walked right in front of the platform where the singers were singing, holding placards which said words to the effect that separation of the races was God's will. Some of the placards had Bible chapter and verse numbers on them. The Baha'is simply ignored them and went on with the program. I saw this on a video the other night. I thought it took a tremendous amount of courage on their part to continue on as if nothing was happening. They showed no hatred towards the KKK either. It was quite remarkable and wonderful! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 49 Sat Dec 14, 1991 MARTINEAU [dean] at 18:43 EST Rick, I'd like to make a couple points. First, Baha'u'llah didn't consciously examine the world situation, decide the Kingdom was not working well, then decide to start the Baha'i Faith. Rather, he received direct revelation from God in accordance with prophesy. The relevance to racism is this: Christ taught, "lovth thy neighbor." In This new Day, Baha'u'llah has called on us to do much more. It is, for instance, quite possible to "love" a child or a pet, but one isn't obligated to treat them as equals. Baha'u'llah has commanded us not only to love, but to know at the very core of our beings that we are all one. The human race is a living organism made up of many diverse cells and organs. When one cell or organ is sick, ill-nurished or abused, the entire body suffers. To implement this far-reaching principle, we are called upon to do some specific things. We are called to purge from our hearts all prejudice against our neighbor, even if she be a member of a traditionally hated and feared race or a race with which we have had little contact. We must ensure that our neighbor has equal rights and priveleges, is not disproportionately poor or rich, We must ensure that she has an education and choose an auxiliary language so that we can communicate with her. We must teach the principle of the oneness of mankind in all the schools of the world, enact laws based on it, and, most relevant to us here, believe it intrinsically and practice it in our lives. Dean ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 50 Sat Dec 14, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 22:07 EST Hi Dean: >First, Baha'u'llah didn't consciously examine the world situation, >decide the Kingdom was not working well, then decide to start the >Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i faith, like all religions, is man-made. Yeshua is the only God and the only means to salvation. >The relevance to racism is this: Christ taught, "loveth thy >neighbor." My God Yeshua told us to love our neighbors AND our enemies. >for instance, quite possible to "love" a child or a pet, but one >isn't obligated to treat them as equals. My God Yeshua told us to love our fellow humans as we love ourselves. To do so we must treat them as equals. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hi Wendy: >just occurred to me that the "man of sin" could be symbolic for >racism. Could you please clarify the above statement a bit further? >separation of the races was God's will. Nope. >Some of the placards had Bible chapter and verse numbers on them. If the KKK are trying to use Scriptures, that is like the pot calling the kettle black. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 51 Sat Dec 14, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 22:54 EST Dean, I agree. A revelation would be received from God with instructions on how to proceed. This is consistent with my belief on how He would build His Kingdom after the great apostasy, which I believe was well underway by the 2nd. Century. For the World to live in peace I believe there needs to be three vital elements. You touched on some or all of them: 1. The people must be of one heart and one mind. 2. They must dwell in righteousness. 3. There must be no poor among them. I also believe that only Jesus Christ can unite all the people. Wendy, The "man of sin" is Satan. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 52 Sun Dec 15, 1991 S.MACKLEM [Suds] at 18:35 EST 25, 2 Message 46 Sat Dec 14, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] > In your opinion, has the "falling away" happened yet? > Has the "man of sin" been revealed? Rick__Obviously the answer to your first question is that the falling away has been in progress since the mid-nineteenth century, at least, and is still continuing. As to the second question, the "man of sin" has been progressively revealed in numerous different persons throughout history, from Nero through Pope Leo X to Stalin and Hitler. He is not always easy to recog- nize immediately, but I suspect that the Reagan/Thatcher axis may qualify in retrospect, as having sowed the seeds of the economic and military catastrophes ahead. You did not mention Peter's admonition that the return of Christ must not be expected any time soon, presumably not for two or three thousand years since, as he told the people: a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Since our Lord was born in October of 4 B.C. the Fall of 1995 marks the end of two thousand years (two days with the Lord) from His birth, and begins the third day. By the usual reckoning it was before dawn of the third day (Sunday) that He arose from the dead. On the other hand, if His sacrifice was on Thursday, before the agony in the Garden, then He was three days AND three nights "in the heart of the earth" where He was crucified and entombed and He arose before dawn of the fourth day (which, if one day is as a thousand years, begins in 3000 A.D.) I believe that our Lord was sacrificed as the Lamb of God, when the other lambs were sacrificed, which was "between the two evenings" (i.e. between noon and sundown) on Thursday, and at the Last Supper He gave of His spiritual body and His spiritual blood which was sacrificed that after- noon, leaving Him vulnerable to the agony in the Garden. The following day, Friday, He was crucified. He arose before dawn of the fourth day, (Sunday) having been crucified two days (Friday and Saturday), and two night (Friday night and Saturday night) prior to that. Three days and three nights "in the heart of the earth" does not work any way other than recognizing that the crucifixion was anti-climactic to His much greater spiritual sacrifice on Thursday. The fall of 1995 marks the end of His second day "in the heart of the earth," and begins the third day (the third thousand years) before the end of which, presumably, He will return. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 53 Sun Dec 15, 1991 W.GRIM [WG] at 21:24 EST I must betg to differ with your assessment of Pope Leo X as a man of sin. He was undoubtedly one of the most cultured of the Popes and was a great patron of the arts. He was a man of learning and his reputation has been besmirched simply because he was a Medici. I, frankly, am tired of Medici-bashing. We owe this family a great deal for they bankrolled the Renaissance. Sure Leo X wasn't Mother Theresa, but what he accomplished is probably of greater significance when you consider the great art and culture that would not have existed were it not for his patronage. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 57 Sun Dec 15, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 22:49 EST Dear fellow workers in the cause of unity, Thanks to you all for your loving, thoughtful posts. Peter, I was just a little concerned that you quoted the phrase "separation of the races was God's will.", attributing it to dear Wendy Scott's earlier post. This isn't Wendy's view of course, but that of the Klu Klux Klan. This jumped out at me as I read the new posts in this topic, I'm sorry to say. I'm sure it was unintentional on your part but we wouldn't want anyone confusing the views of the KKK with those of Wendy who longs for racial unity with all her heart and soul. Peter, in reply to my query: How can we work together to eliminate racism, you replied: "By seeking the pattern of experiences we have in common to share. Find the pattern that exists, find the groups of people who share the pattern, and some how get them together." Can't we take that a step further and acknowledge that the pattern we share is the pattern of being created by the same God for the purpose of knowing and loving Him. Just as Dean pointed out, we are all cells in the living organism of humanity. What "pattern of experience" is more common to us all? If we think of it this way then we don't need to concern ourselves with looking at different groups- there's just one group: us-humanity! "God did not make these divisions; these divisions have had their origin in man himself. Therefor, as they are against the plan and purpose of God they are false and imaginery" -Abdu'l-Baha' Everyone: There's a place I've found to be great for establishing the bonds of love and trust between blacks and whites here in racially divided America: the kitchen table! When people of diversity sit down around the kitchen table and share a meal, their problems and aspirations, their prayers and fellowship- then the spirit of our Lord comes to the table too- and hearts are united! This kitchen table method of unity really works, requires no great planning or expense and is spiritually rewarding. I give it my highest recommendation! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 58 Mon Dec 16, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 02:28 EST Great idea, Dan. And thanks for getting us back on topic! ;) Speaking of Abdu'l-Baha, I found this passage from a talk he gave at the Fourth Unitarian Church in Brooklyn in 1912: "The unity which is productive of unlimited results is first a unity of mankind which recognizes that all are sheltered beneath the overshadowing glory of the All-Glorious, that all are servants of one God; for all breathe the same atmosphere, live upon the same earth, move beneath the same heavens, receive effulgence from the same sun and are under the protection of one God. This is the most great unity, and its results are lasting if humanity adheres to it; but mankind has hitherto violated it, adhering to sectarian or other limited unities such as racial, patriotic or unity of self-interests; therefore, no great results have been forthcoming. Nevertheless, it is certain that the radiance and favors of God are encompassing, minds have developed, perceptions have become acute, sciences and arts are widespread, and capacity exists for the proclamation and promulgation of the real and ultimate unity of mankind, which will bring forth marvelous results. It will reconcile all religions, make warring nations loving, cause hostile kings to become friendly and bring peace and happiness to the human world. It will cement together the Orient and Occident, remove forever the foundations of war and upraise the ensign of the Most Great Peace..." (=Promulgation of Universal Peace=, p. 191) Thanks, Dan, for clarifying what I said about the KKK. Too bad they can't seem to avail themselves of the wisdom of Abdu'l-Baha. Maybe they wouldn't be so fearful of the future God has ordained for His creatures. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ P.S. Peter, I really don't know if my thoughts on the "man of sin" being revealed are correct or not. I do know scripture is capable of bringing forth many meanings. For instance, the word "Adam" means mankind. We often use the term "man" to mean mankind as well. Perhaps the "man of sin" is a general description of the evils of the period of the latter days. One of these evils, IMHO, is racism (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith identified racism, nationalism, and communism as the three most persistent evils of our time). So, "man of sin" could mean humanity gone evil, a condition which could be said to exist, in many respects, today. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 59 Mon Dec 16, 1991 S.SCHWAB1 [Susan] at 02:42 EST Wendy, <I'm a musician...I play bass in our local opera and December has been really busy...> I never pictured you as a musician, Wendy. So am I - I'm a violist, and can certainly identify with the busy December! I've also done 'Messiah' (and Mozart's Requiem, among various other things.) As a matter of fact, I've also been doing opera this month. Just had a performance of Verdi's 'Otello' tonight (about the only thing in this post that is even remotely "on topic" <g,d,r!> ) Are you a free-lancer like me? -- Susan a/k/a "Bratsche" ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 60 Mon Dec 16, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 03:06 EST All right, Susan, nice to hear you're into music, too. Otello--very cute :) Yes, I free-lance in symphonies, operas, and churches. Sorry, folks, I know this is off-topic... Glad to know you're lurking here, Susan--I look forward to your ideas on topic as well! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 61 Mon Dec 16, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 18:19 EST Suds, The current economic disarray began long before Reagan and Thatcher. An easy point of reference for the US is the Johnson years, when big defense spending (and borrowing) was matched by big domestic spending (and borrowing). Remember that by the end of the Johnson years, the economy had taken such a terrifying downturn (seen by a sudden inflation increase -- money was worth less because of the sudden jump in the national debt) that Nixon instituted a nation- wide wage and price freeze. I vote for the spirit of secular humanism, whatever man now represents it (since the death of Lenin and his followers) as the man of sin. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 62 Mon Dec 16, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 19:18 EST Hello Dan: >This isn't Wendy's view of course, but that of the Klu Klux Klan. I know that, Dan. That's why I thought it was hilarious the KKK was trying to use scriptures to back up their silly statement. >Can't we take that a step further and acknowledge that the pattern >we share is the pattern of being created by the same God for the >purpose of knowing and loving Him. Unless that God is the same Yeshua in the written Word of God (The Holy Bible), no. ---Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 63 Mon Dec 16, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 19:18 EST Kirk, Perhaps you'd care to comment on the effects of a protracted and entrenched racial discrimination on the economic status of Black Americans, Hispanic Americans and native Americans. Don't you think that "the application of the spiritual principle of the oneness of humanity would necessitate and make possible vast changes in the economic status of the non-white segments of the population"? (from the Vision of Race Unity, America's Most Challenging Issue). Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 64 Mon Dec 16, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 19:30 EST Peter, I'm sorry but I just don't understand your last post. I believe there is one God, by whatever name you call Him. The one God created us all and makes no distinction between us based on race or anything else material, man-made or man-defined. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 65 Mon Dec 16, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 19:47 EST Hello Dan: >I believe there is one God, by whatever name you call Him. Do you believe God became flesh in the form of Yeshua (Jesus)? --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 66 Mon Dec 16, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 21:33 EST Dan, I don't think that it is modern racism, per se, which now cripples Black Americans, Latins (which is what I think Hispanic Americans now prefer to be called), or native Americans. I say this in view of the effectiveness in which I see immigrant Africans and Asians make their way to success in the United States. I know several Africans (Cameroonians and Sudanese) who have come here and within 3-5 years have earned enough money to open their own businesses. And of course, the success of Asians is almost legendary. Why is this possible for Africans and not for African-Americans? It cannot be simply *current* racism. Rather, I think it is the continuing effect of the loss of culture, or something less easily defined, due to the experience of slavery. It is also less easily cured. For one thing, I think black Americans should abandon the current attempt to pretend that we are simply immigrants with real links to our mother continent. The links which other immigrant peoples have (such as Irish Americans and Italian Americans) are genuine and unbroken. The true effect of the mother culture is pervasive and relevant. On the other hand, there is no such thing as an "African" culture. There is a Xhosa culture, a Zulu culture, an Endwala culture, and so on, but there is no "African" culture. We can't claim the entire continent and come up with anything usable. Two avenues are open for a black American. One, to adopt a particular African tribe and learn that one culture. Two, to assume a black-American culture as unique and worthy in its own right and be proud of it. I have personally chosen the second path, and feel fine about it. I feel no need to claim pharoahs in my lineage, because the achievements of my own family and other blacks in this country are quite good enough. This, I think, is the key. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 67 Mon Dec 16, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 22:27 EST Kirk, Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 68 Mon Dec 16, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 22:56 EST Kirk, Good post. Have you checked out "The Vision of Race Unity" in the Religion RT software library? It speaks of the importance of cultural heritage and positive self-image. I think the born in the USA, descended from slaves Afro-American has plenty to be proud of in terms of cultural heritage. The richness and vitality of black american culture is a national treasure. Unfortuanately the blight of racism has blinded many of us, black and white alike, to that richness. The qualities of spirit and character which stand revealed when our black culture is studied point to role of leadership which american blacks will be called to in shaping our nation's spiritual destiny. Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 69 Tue Dec 17, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 18:14 EST Hello Dan: You stated we worship the same God, Dan. I asked you do you believe God became man in the form of Yeshua (Jesus) to atone for our sins and offer us eternal life. May I ask the same question again? ---Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 70 Tue Dec 17, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 22:44 EST Peter, This topic is on the subject of race unity. Please let's keep to the topic. I believe I answered your question in my last post in 9.31. If you'd like to discuss it, please do it there. Thanks, Peter. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 71 Wed Dec 18, 1991 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 18:59 EST Hello Wendy: >This topic is on the subject of race unity. Dan had made the comment *in this topic* that we all worshipped the same God. I want clarification of this statement, Wendy. I worship Yeshua (Jesus) who is God in the flesh. How about it, Dan? Do you believe my God is your God if my God is Yeshua (Jesus)? ---Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 72 Wed Dec 18, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 21:43 EST Peter, Yes. Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 73 Sat Dec 21, 1991 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Deusi] at 03:49 EST Kirk>>Why is this possible for Africans and not for African-Americans? It cannot be simply *current* racism. Rather, I think it is the continuing effect of the loss of culture, or something less easily defined, due to the experience of slavery. It is also less easily cured.<< The fact that slavery virtually destroyed the culture of the people forced to endure it should not be underestimated. I believe that without the culture we have so fortunately inherited from our ancestors we would all still be in the jungles and forests scavenging for food. From studying my own history, that of the barbarians of northern europe, particularly those who came to occupy England and Germany, I have concluded that if they had not met the Greeks and Romans and adopted much of their language and customs, I might still be living in a mud and straw hut roasting nuts under a bright morning sky. -Ignoro Deusi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 74 Sat Dec 21, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 15:14 EST Ignoro, Good point. And it also bodes well for humanity that we are all able to know each other now as the earth becomes more and more of a "neighborhood." As we have more contact with each other's cultures, a new world culture will emerge. What it will look like exactly I don't know. But it can't help but be an improvement over what we see now. Thanks for your contribution here! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 76 Tue Dec 24, 1991 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 02:22 EST There is only one race out of spiritual harmony with the rest of civilization. Its the race that took land from the indians; its the race that brought Africians to America and enslaved them; its the race that killed millions of Jews in Germany; its the race that started world wars; its the race that pretends the problem of racism is someone elses. Its easy to say that we are not part of the above mlention situations, but can we say that we are not a part of racism in America today? The same attitudes that brought about those situations are alive and well today. Racism and racial unity is an individual thing. Each of us is going to have to reach deep down within ourselves and find that love that we pretend that we have for each other and start acting like the Christrians we claim to be. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 77 Tue Dec 24, 1991 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Deusi] at 03:25 EST The Human Race ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 78 Tue Dec 24, 1991 M.GOODAVISH1 [MICHAEL] at 22:56 EST Is anybody aware of any good, effective efforts going on in the U.S. to break down the racial barriers between us? I remember seeing a program on television in Cleveland this year which presented a day- long workshop done by a woman, the purpose of which was to turn the tables on "oppressors" in the room. Through this, those used to being "on the inside" were able to experience being "on the outside." Those who are usually "on the outside" were surprised to see how they behaved when "on the inside." Most of them found themselves participating in the prejudicial actions themselves. I was raised to believe that prejudice and bigotry are evil. Yet, I experience unwanted prejudice within me in certain situations, as much as I do not like it. Any info out there on effective programs? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 79 Wed Dec 25, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 14:57 EST Michael, You might want to get in contact with the Baha'i Community in your area. Many Baha'is have race unity conferences, workshops, seminars, etc. We are at this time actively engaged in the dissemination of a document called "The Vision of Race Unity," which you can download from the GEnie R&E library (#893). Baha'is have been active participants for years in the planning of Martin Luther King Day celebrations, especially the big one in Atlanta. Of course, I don't know how much you know about Baha'i, but if you're interested in learning more, I can tell you that reading the Writings of Baha'u'llah, our Prophet-Founder, is a healing experience, one which will heighten your awareness of the Oneness and Wholeness of the entire human race. Remember the song "let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me"? We can all do something about this problem by straightening out our own minds on the subject, by recognizing that negative presumptions about our fellow humans are probably wrong, and by realizing that at the core of EVERY religion is the teaching of love. I wish you well in your desire to make this world a better place for us all! Hope your Christmas is merry, too. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 80 Thu Dec 26, 1991 A.JANSSEN [AKJ] at 19:14 EST Thank you Ignoro Deusi Jerry's fulmination against (aparently) the United States as being the source of all evil in history (The Great Satan?) was so out of touch it was almost funny if it wasn't so sad! Jerry - our ancestors may have been guilty of the things you mention but they were hardly alone in their generations. The same crimes were being perpetrated all over the world by all races of mankind. We are ALL sinners, including you. Besides, WE DIDN'T start WWII or kill the Jews in Germany. Karen ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 81 Thu Dec 26, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 21:10 EST Karen, Jerry's fulmination was against Europeans in general (and Anglo- Saxon/Teutonic Europeans in particular). While similar evils occur in every continent, Europeans do seem to have made a successful mass market of it. Perhaps that is why God placed the gentle gospel of Christianity first upon Europe. As severely as the Gospel has been twisted, I'd hate to be in a world without even that restraint upon Europeans. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 82 Fri Dec 27, 1991 MARTINEAU [dean] at 00:20 EST Michael, to elaborate a bit on Wendy's message 79, there are groups of Baha'is who are forming Institutes for the Healing of Racism. These groups exist for that purpose solely and have no underlying motive to propagate the Baha'i Faith. The model they are following seems to be working to break down the walls of racism. In Houston, it seems that hundreds regularly attend Dialogue sessions; the local police department is looking to the Institute for guidance and training; aed interracial friendships are forming. Racism is a big problem; which we all face, and it will not be solved overnight, but the model of the Institute for the Healing of Racism has great promise. You would all do well to see if one has been formed in your areas. By the way, is anybody here celebrating Kwanzaa? If so, Heri! ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 83 Fri Dec 27, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 00:25 EST Dean, What is "Kwanzaa"? Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 84 Fri Dec 27, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 00:41 EST Yeah, Dean, what is that? You got me! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 85 Fri Dec 27, 1991 A.JANSSEN [AKJ] at 21:00 EST Kirk - If European stock is the source of so much mass evil in the world, how do you explain much of what is going on in the Aisian and Mid.East countries. Personally I think we are all in this together - ALL humans are basically sinners. Of ALL races. Karen ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 86 Sat Dec 28, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 09:52 EST Karen, Knee-jerk alert! I *already* mentioned that all the other continents had the same problems. However it cannot be denied that Europe was most successful at exporting the European version to every other corner of the world. The difference is not violence -- everybody has that (ever read the history of Polynesian Hawaii?) The difference seems to be a peculiarly European fundamental conflict with their environment. Everybody else tended to live within their environmental means. This fundamental conflict is called "progress." However, at some point it is necessary to come to an armistice with the environment, I think. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 87 Sat Dec 28, 1991 A.JANSSEN [AKJ] at 16:41 EST Kirk - everyone else tended to live in harmony with their environment? Is that substantiated or popular myth? I've heard stories of American Indians driving whole herds of buffalo off a cliff and taking only a small part of the kill because more were killed than they could process or use. That's environmentally harmonious? I'll bet others could add to this. Humans are humans world wide. We use what we can get and tend to waste the rest. Unfortunately. Perhaps we are learning better. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 88 Sat Dec 28, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 17:35 EST Karen, Have you ever stood next to a buffalo? I have. When I was a kid, one day my cousin and I played a very dangerous game of trying to pull the woolly hair on the top of a buffalo's hump. Those things are doggone *big.* If all you have is a flint-headed arrow shot from a simple bow, you aren't going to be very successful at buffalo hunting -- bad news when it meant living through the winter -- or not. Whoever thought of running them over a cliff probably got an award, but not that many buffalo. The Indians were never successful at taking more than a tiny fraction of the buffalo herds which existed -- buffalo aren't the brightest in the animal kingdom, but they aren't lemmings. For that matter, lemmings are "lemmings." This is a far different thing from truly destroying millions of animals in a twenty-year for sport or for trinkets. History records pretty well who nearly spelled the extinction of the buffalo. Violence is common to all, but the perfection of violence is unique to one. There is a difference, one which has never really been discussed or explored, yet may hold import clues to how violence may be tempored after all. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 90 Sun Dec 29, 1991 MARTINEAU [dean] at 21:23 EST Kwanzaa is an African-American festival, launched by Dr. Maulana Karenga, I believe in 1962. I will qoute from a post by Doris (d.berry11) from a racism discussion area on the public policy board: "Kwanzaa starts December 26 and ends on January 1. Each day represents one of the Nguzo Saba (7 principles). The Nguzo Saba are: 1. Umoja (Unity) To strive for and maintain unity in the family, community, nation and race. 2. Kajichagulia (Self-determination) To define ourselves, name ourselves, create for ourselves and speak for ourselves instead of being defined, named, created for and spoken for by others. 3. Ujima (Collective Work and Responsibility) To build and maintain our community together and make our sister's and brother's problems our problems and to solve them together. 4. Ujamaa (Cooperative Economics) To build and maintain our own stores, shops and other businesses and to profit from them together. 5. Nia (Purpose) To make our collective vocation the building and developing of our community in order to restore our people in their traditional greatness. 6. Kuumba (Creativity) To do always as much as we can, in the way we can, in order to leave our community more beautiful and beneficial than we inherited it. 7. Imani (Faith) To believe with all our heart in our people, our parents, our teachers, our leaders and the righteousness and victory of our struggle. The 7 principles and their definitions were written by Dr. Karenga." Kirk and Karen, racism is a problem faced by abl peoples. I suggest that none of the violence you are discussing is inherent to human nature, and that to try to show that one race has been more vicious than another is not going to help us deal with the problem of racism. I do think that as a white person and beneficiary of what is unquestionably a racist society that I have a responsibility to decry racism and to work for its eradication, both within myself and within society. Racism and all forms of human cruelty are expressions of humanity's disappearing childhood, Can we focus on the eradication of racism now and in the future? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 91 Sun Dec 29, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 21:58 EST Dean, Thanks for your description of Kwanzaa. I noticed there was an article on a local celebration in this morning's paper, so it is apparently spreading. I agree, of course, that we need to focus on the eradication of racism now and in the future. I think we should start with wisdom from the past. Here are some quotes from the religious writings of the world which should help us focus on what we should have already known: "Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another?" (Judaism, Malachi 2:10) "I command ye all to be equal under one holy command, I bring ye up all alike...Be united in your purpose, let your hearts be as one heart, minds of all as one mind so that your affairs may be cooperatively well organized." (Hinduism, Rig Veda 8:7) "...[God] has made of one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth." (Christianity, Acts 17:26) "The tabernacle of unity hath been raised. Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch...The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens." (Baha'i, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 218 & 250) "Ye are all parts one of another." (Islam, Qur'an 3:195) "Many do not know that we are here in this world to live in harmony. Those who know this do not fight against each other." (Buddhism, Dhammapada 1:6) Hope this helps us all to focus a little better. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ P.S. I've used these quotes other places on the boards, so I know that some of you may have seen them before. I think they are important enough, however, to be repeated. I hope you will agree. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 92 Sun Dec 29, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 22:23 EST dean, "Kwanzaa" seems to have erupted from nowhere this year. It sounds very good coming from the mouth of Dr. Karenga. Do you realize what those 7 points would sound like from the mouth of David Duke? 1. To strive for and maintain unity in the (white) family, (white) community, (white) nation, and (white) race. Et cetera, all the way to: 7. To believe with all our heart in our (white) people, our (white) parents, our (white) teachers, our (white) leaders, and the righteousness and victory or our (white) struggle. How can I, as a black man, begin to believe that you are willing to see racism honestly if you have the attitude that anti-white racism is as big a problem for whites as anti-black racism is for blacks? That's like saying female sexual harrassment against men is as big a problem as male sexual harrassment against women. Impossible, for the percentage of women in position to sexually harrass a man is miniscule. In like manner, the ability for a any given group of racist blacks to do harm to any given white man is miniscule to the ability of any given group of whites to do harm to any given black man. So white racism is a far bigger problem for blacks than black racism is for whites, at least in this country. The fact that you deny this gives me evidence that you are not honestly viewing the problem. The fact that you attempt to say "Everybody is equally at fault here" indicates that you are closing your eyes to three centuries of black people in this country very patiently trying to meet white standards by white rules and yet being unfairly denied the opportunity. This is not ancient history we're talking about. This is my childhood and that of the black part of the baby boom generation, as well as all who came before. *I* remember being spat upon because I wanted to go to a certain movie theater or restaurant. *I* remember being placed in the back of the classroom and having the white teacher refuse to speak to me the entire school year. The honest approach, IMHO, would be to say "We were wrong, we need to make amends, then we can start out on equal footing." Bending over backwards, at this point, is not out of order. Of course, I don't expect you to do that. Looking through my son's eighth grade American History book, copyright 1988, it gives a *single* sentence about the institution of slavery: "The black slaves led a hard life. Poor whites led a hard life too." That's the SUM TOTAL of what it has to say about slavery in America. I guarantee you that I told him quite a bit more. But it puts the majority attitude in its true light. Like my elders before me, I've sadly resigned myself to the fact that this country will always be a hostile environment for black people, like a the Kalahari desert will always be a hostile environment for the Bushmen. The Bushmen must get up before dawn every morning to lick the dew and hunt the monkey, or they will die. So I teach my children not to sleep late, but to get up before the dawn every single morning and attend to survival. If it rains, good. But don't count on it. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 93 Sun Dec 29, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 23:05 EST Thank you, Kirk. I'm sure you educated a lot of people today. One thing about life in general that you really should know, though, is that nothing "will always be" anything. I have faith that God wants us to grow up and stop acting like a bunch of kids, and that if He wants it, it will happen! When it does happen, there will no longer be a hostile environment for anyone. I pray that you will see this possibility, too, and have a little more hope for humanity's future. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 94 Mon Dec 30, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 01:53 EST Dean, Thank you for the information. I think that as we are created in God's image we all have a least a spark of God in us all. Which means we can all rise above the things that cause hate and violence. The power is within us all no matter how badly treated we have been. Nice words, eh? Harder to live by, but possible. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 95 Mon Dec 30, 1991 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 04:06 EST Kirk, Thanks for a great post. As a member of the white race I apologize in all humility for the terrible suffering my race has inflicted on yours. We were profoundly wrong and continue to be wrong. If we can listen to the heartfelt testimony such as your post then we begin to see the steps that need to be taken to make amends. Personally, I don't see it as the two races "being equally at fault". Not at all! I think that part of the healing process is acknowledgeing the hurt that was done and continues to be done. However, it doesn't do me as a white man much good to run around feeling guilty or ashamed for these things. I have to get beyond that to work for unity. If I go out tomorrow morning and do or think something that reflects a racist attitude, then I have reason to feel ashamed. Then hopefully I'd take a look at myself and try to figure out what's making me behave this way. Then I'd take deliberate steps to change my outlook and behaviour. Your use of the phrase "bending over backwards" is not inappropriate when we consider the urguency of the racism problem. Your example of the superficial gloss put on slavery in your 8th grade son's history book highlights this urguency. The monumental impact of slavery on our national history can't be ignored. The rich contributions of blacks to our *even while enslaved* can't be ignored. Proper education is vital. This is a big subject. When I think about that particular 8th grade history book, it makes my blood boil with anger. But that anger has to be replaced with constructive action. Maybe your town needs a commitee of concerned parents and citizens to address this textbook issue. Even if your town is predominantly white I think you'd find a lot of people who share you concern. If they don't: tell 'em! "So essential is the principle of the oneness of humanity to efficacy of educational programs tha it cannot be overemphasized. Without its broad influence such programs will not contribute significantly to the development of society. The very fact that businesses are themselves implementing educational programs (programs that teach conflict resolution and are designed to eliminate racial and ethnic tensions form the workplace) is indicative of the glaring deficiency of the entire educational system." from the "Vision of Race Unity" GEnie file #893 Kirk, I'm saddened that you're resigned to a belief that this country will remain a hostile environment to blacks. I hope that your spirit will soon begin to soar with the joyous vision of a racially harmonious land. It's a new day my good friend! Just by being here on GEnie talking about these things together we're helping that vision. Today I went out and approached some white friends ( I approached black friends too :-) ) and asked them to buy tickets for this years East Harlem Interfaith Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Breakfast Celebration. It supports a scholarship fund and is a great interfaith community event. I told the white friends that it would be a good idea for them to show their white faces up in Harlem and have a great breakfast besides! And they bought the tickets! I don't see my friends in Harlem being resigned to things staying the same- no way. I want to share in their vision and be a part of it. It's going to happen! It's got to happen! Prayer helps. God Bless! Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 96 Mon Dec 30, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 15:56 EST Thank you, Dan! What an upper that was! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 97 Mon Dec 30, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 19:49 EST Dan, I'm still a young guy (38) -- I've just come back from a family funeral, and I'm still feeling the effects of long late-night discussions with my elders. Having seen so much, and seeing that the situation is really no better today than fifty or sixty years ago, all my elders are certainly convinced that things will not improve on this side of Judgement Day. I still have some hopes, but not for my children. The thing is this: Racism is not a theoretical theory for us. We have to factor the effect of racism in our basic daily lives. Did you read about the recent study of racism in the home loan policies of banks and savings and loans? So if my wife and I decide to buy a house, we must factor in racism to determine how much downpayment we need and where we can live. A recent Consumer's Union study showed that blacks (and women) are unable to get the same low-priced deals on new cars that white men can get, even when using the exact same shopping strategy. So that means I have to factor in racism when I even go car shopping. I have to factor in racism when deciding what college my son goes to. I have to factor in racism when planning a cross-country trip -- where can I stop to eat, or sleep, or buy gas. I have to factor in racism with every single meeting I make with a white person, regardless of purpose. I can never simply presume that he accepts me for the content of my character. I have to approach him the same way I would approach a strange dog. This is not a matter of paranoia -- I've been bitten by too many strange dogs. It's a damned shame, but it's life in this world (and America is better than most places). ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 98 Tue Dec 31, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 00:22 EST Kirk, There's alot of white's who don't get low-priced deals on new cars too. I believe some of the salesman will take anybody for as much as they can pay. As for me, I wouldn't know -- as I can't afford a _new_ car I had to buy used the last time around. My wife and I discovered that when she was discriminated against at work we could have brought a lawsuit against the company, courtesy of the government. We declined and resolved it our own way. Turned out just fine -- sometimes we use a sledge-hammer to achieve what could be done with a minor adjustment. As for race discrimination I not an expert on this, so I bow to your better knowledge and experience. As an immigrant I just worked harder so that I was not just equal with but better than the average American. This is not meant to be insulting, but it wasn't hard to do. For some reason, many of the Americans at college figured the world owed them a living (all were whites by the way). Those kind are push- overs to compete against for jobs, etc. I was taught to stand on my own two feet, no matter the odds, and _persevere_. Seems to have worked so far, especially when I messed my life up so bad in my twenties. There's something about someone that you see who is trying -- makes you want to help. The world owes me nothing -- it could have gotten along very well thank you without me. I think the world is a great place, American's are great people, and as well as having black spots in its history it has much that is grea and that we can be proud of. It is my responsibility to put back into society as much as I can, to promote the general welfare. It is stupid of me to be selfish, because I am part of society, that entity which sustains me. Much could be accomplished with we quit arguing, worked together, and loved one another. The Baha'is seem to be DOING something about it and for that they should be commended. I might add that the best friend I ever had was black but was killed in the Army while we served together. He had racial things done to him but he never got bitter about it. He made a success in with his life because he had room for other things that replaced bemoaning his lot. The world is full of hate, discrimination, and unfairness. So what? Life would be pretty miserable without opposition. I wish you well and enjoy your posts.I think, as usual, I've said too much -- chalk that up to my Brit heritage and my working class upbringing. I'll try to do better next time. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 99 Tue Dec 31, 1991 G.SWOBE [Gordon] at 00:51 EST Hi there Dan, I un-IGNored this topic because you asked me to over in the MPGames RT. I haven't read any messages except the first two or three, but I'll try to participate if I get a chance. Chao. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 100 Tue Dec 31, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 01:25 EST Good to see you here, Gordon! Rick, Thank you again for your kind words about the Baha'is. You bring up a good point that everyone has to struggle in some way to make it in this world. I think we need to recognize, however, that a person is never able to hide his skin color and if people base their objections to someone on that, there's not much the person can do about it. Working harder or better doesn't necessarily help in the face of strong racial prejudice. I'm not trying to diminish what you said, just show that sometimes we as the "acceptable" color do not always see what it's really like to be an "unacceptable" color. Kirk, The statement on race unity which was written by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the U.S., a racially diverse group consisting of nine members, has this to say, and I was wondering if you might comment on it: "It is evident that both Black and White Americans in large numbers are feeling deeply disappointed and frustrated by what each group perceives to be a failure of the efforts in recent decades at effecting progress in the relations between the races. To rationalize this failure, both have been reacting by retreating to the more familiar ground of racial separation. As the problems with crime and drug addiction mount, the tendency is to use the seeming intractability of these problems as a measure of the failure of years of struggle on the part of both to overcome the barriers of centuries. Formidable as is the challenge yet to be met, can it fairly be said that no significant progress has taken place since the days of the sit-ins at lunch counters across the South?" (page 11, The Vision of Race Unity) Thanks, Kirk, I look forward to your comments. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 101 Tue Dec 31, 1991 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 03:01 EST Kirk, Thank you for your post. I am glad that honesty about ones true feelings are posted here and especially when it is done in such a way as to impart an understanding of the severity of the problem without blatantly attacking anyone. I am not sure I can put into words all I want to say though. To me it would be like stating the problem and the solution in a few words and this is impossible, so instead of even attempting it I will relay a couple of stories. I am a white man. I was brought up in a small town. It was an all white town until I was in high school and then for some reason or another we had one African-American student who played football one year when I was a sophmore. I didn't do sports and as such, never even spoke to him. I was raised to believe that God created everybody equal. Then I went to college. It was there that I spoke to an African- American for the first time. It was in the dorm and a group of people were playing ping pong. Ron asked me if I wanted to play. I did and our friendship continues today. In those years spent in college, Ron and many other African-American students I became friends with educated me in a loving way about the differences in our cultures. I learned much. I remember how animated the conversations were and how I first thought that maybe someone was angry rather that animated. I remember how we used to cook (or try to) what our mothers would cook for us at home and how many times when they cooked, it was the first time I had had that dish. I learned that they already knew everything about my culture and I knew nothing about theirs. This was my first experience with someone of another race. I thank God for those days. It has made each encounter with another culture or race an encounter I anticipate with joy. Years later I happened to date an African-American woman. It was then I learned that even though my parents raised me that we were all created equal that equality ended when marriage was in the picture. This made for some difficult years and some real deep and sincere attempts at unity had to be made to save the relationship between myself and my parents, my girlfriend and her parents. To make a long story short, the relationship with my parents is good, the girl is gone and if my next child is a boy, he will have the name of her parents. You know, for me, my relationships with my friends are exceptionally important. I love my friends. My friends are more family to me than my blood family. One of the highest honors I can give my friends is to introduce them to my other friends. It pains me greatly that some of my friends would not be as welcome as others in my parents home because of race. I want to be equal. If there is inequality between white people and African- Americans then I am not equal either. I believe that this inequality prevents both races from reaching their potential, that the fruits of our being will always be withered unless and until we achieve true unity. And without true unity there is no true freedom. I have to agree with you that whites must take an active role in the elimination of racism. One of the reasons it's important is that white people are currently the only race who have a choice as to whether or not they want to participate in alleviating the problem. (However this is changing. By the year 2020, not so far from now, only 15% of those people entering the work force will be white males) I remember talks I have attended on this topic and many times when a black man is the speaker, I hear white people talking about how come "they" are always complaing. These same white people will listen with greater attentiveness to a white man. It is sad that words spoken from the heart of a black man do not carry the weight of ones spoken from a white man. This is the reality and you know it better than I. I would only ask of you that when you encounter a white person whom you perceive as making an honest attempt at unity, to listen and to help them. For the whites, I would ask them to recognize the tremendous achievements of African-Americans despite having their culture taken from them and suffering through hardships and indignities we can only imagine, and when you make that attempt to work on the problem and talk to an African-American, be profoundly grateful they will even listen. And now for a bit of trivia: ( I really love the fact that science is now beginning to provide us with proofs about all this!) From a study conducted by Richard C. Lewontin, Professor of Zoology, Biology and Population Sciences at Harvard and published in the book "Human Diversity," Scientific American Books, New York 1982 In a study of genetic diversity using inherited bloods groups that of the diversity that exists in the global gene pool, only 6.3% is due to differences between traditionally defined major races. (the word traditionally is used here as he further states that their are no "pure" races.) The above is an example of science agreeing with the teaching that God created only one race, the human race. I know that there is volumes more to say, but it has always seemed to me that the beginning must include white people inviting into their homes for dinner (I like the dinner part, eating together is a unified thing) African-Americans and beginning the process of becoming friends. Friends are people with hearts and souls whom you care about and love and who love you. Let's keep working on this. peace......Bob PS - I have a copy of an outline entitled "Healing Racism: Education's Role" I would be happy to send you. It contains guidelines to ensure that the education process includes diversity and the equality of all races and cultures. I have given this paper to a number of schools and been met with gratitude and thanks. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 102 Tue Dec 31, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 03:43 EST Wendy, You bring up a good point. I guess because I had such a great friend who was black I never noticed his skin color. Well, I _would_ about every six months -- I'd suddenly notice, right out of the blue that he was a different color, then I'd forget it again. So I guess I assume that others ignore color to the same degree as I do. But you are right, I see that others don't. Of course, people are picked omn because they are Jews, or women, or Baha'is or LDS. In England as was a small minority as LDS but now in Utah I'm suddenly a huge majority. And there is a difference is the way I'm treated. So I concede that color is even more noticeable than religion so I have to admit that you are right. I guess I wasn't thinking. I still don't understand why folks can't work together for the common good. Maybe the Baha'is can get us moving in the right direction. As LDS I get reminded often to treat the women in my life with love and respect. I don't recall as much stress on racial subjects though. So I can learn alot from what is said here. Thanks. Kirk, Apologies. Didn't mean to judge. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 103 Tue Dec 31, 1991 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 04:09 EST Rick, I really appreciate that you took my post in the spirit in which it was given. I worried a little that I was being too harsh. We are all learning here, aren't we! I know I certainly am. :) Bob Parrish's lovely post reminded me of a story from my past which might help you to understand a little more. When I was a new Baha'i, I lived in a flat in San Francisco with three other Baha'i women. Two were Black and two were white. I was going to school and met a man there who was a Black Muslim (this was in the 60's). We started talking about religion, of course, and he kept telling me that the races could never get together. So I decided to invite him to dinner. He came and we all sat there at the table and listened to him explain to us how the races could never get together-- and yet here we were all at the same table together, living together, friends, etc. He couldn't see it. Was I frustrated! But it was a great lesson to me in just how deep the hurt has gone with some people. It was very sad, but it made me firm in my resolve to never stop working for the elimination of prejudice. You're a good soul, Rick. Perhaps you can be a spearhead in your church to help bring about this awareness. IMHO, you would be performing a great service to humanity if you did. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 104 Tue Dec 31, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 04:36 EST Wendy, Be as "harsh" as you deem necessary, I don't mind. I've never got upset with anyone on GEnie. Face to face I do, but on GEnie I have time to think and absorb what someone has said, so it is very hard for me to ever get mad at anyone. In our church, our records don't say what race one is. We preach love and kindness to all people. We call ourselves "Brother" and "Sister" as we are all one family -- the human race. We all have Adam and Eve as our common ancestors. The LDS are rapidly expanding into Africa and have a black General Authority. We like to stress what we have in common rather than differences. There has been some magazine articles in our Church magaazines that deal with some of the problems certain Los Angeles wards faced with a mixed membership. One really good article was called "Unity in Diversity", the unifiying force being Jesus Christ. So, I think it's all under control and the Gospel has answers for all our problems. So, in our organizational structure I would not have the authority to spearhead any programs though I would be allowed to work independently. I just want to gain some personal insights that I can teac hto my family. As always, I believe the Church will be ready to meet the racial problems in an organized loving way -- the Gospel way. Maybe the reason I've not heard too much about it is that it is not a big problem _within_ the Church. Well, a little off topic. Don't you think the problems are getting better? Used to be that so many places were segregated and we don't have that anymore. Maybe I'm a little sheltered in my predominantly anglo-saxon LDS ward! Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 105 Tue Dec 31, 1991 A.JANSSEN [AKJ] at 12:54 EST Rick - You're absolutely right about it being really easy to be "better than average". Average is so low today that it is scary! I find myself - as an inexperienced secretary and moderatly accomplished word processor - in demand through temporary agencies simply because I am willing to learn and willing to do things the way my current employer wants them done, not just the way I think they ought to be done. It seems that is unusual. It also seems to be simple common sense. Karen ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 106 Tue Dec 31, 1991 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 16:00 EST Karen, I noticed, just like you said, that some of the students in college had trouble doing as the professor requested. That was one of the aspects that made my life easier. If the guy wants the page formated a certain way -- he's got it. May good fortune be yours, Happy New Year, Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 107 Tue Dec 31, 1991 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 19:02 EST Rick, >There's a lot of white's who don't get low-priced deals on new cars too. The Consumer's Union study had people using their own bargaining methods which *should* have resulted in similar results for everybody. However, what they discovered was that the dealers refused to deal as well with blacks and women as they did with white males, and the situation was systemic. Another study, done by a professor in Wisconsin showed that black politicians were more likely to be criminally investigated by the police on less evidence than white politicians, and the investigations were carried on longer even if there were no promising results, than with white politicians. I could go on and on with this -- the point is, every scientific study proves what every black person already knows -- his skin color is an albatross around his neck. The maddening thing is that most white people still believe, regardless of the studies, that there is *no* problem. I would recommend three books for you Rick, to give you a quick and very good education: "To Kill a Mockingbird," by Harper Lee; "The Education of a WASP," by Lois Mark Stalvey; and "Soul Sister," by Grace Halsell. The first is a novel by a Southern white woman who shows surprisingly deep insight (and true) into the feelings of both whites and blacks in America. The movie version is good, but the book provides a far greater understanding of the cultural mores. I kept nodding my head in agreement all the way through it. Every sentence is a gem. The second, also written by a white woman, is the true recounting of what happened to a middle-class white family in Omaha who attempted to find a house in their own suburban neighborhood for a black professional couple they befriended. The third, again written by a white woman, recounts the true experiences of Grace Halsell, a former aide to President Johnson, who took medication to turn her skin black for a year (she later died because of the treatments). She spent six months in Harlem and six months in her native rural Alabama. I advise these three books because they all involve white people who *learn* from a position of honest ignorance what it is to be black in America. I'n not saying that I hate white people or hate America. Like most black Americans, I have a love-hate relationship with this country, and I'd fight and die to protect it. My very dearest friend, after twenty years, is still the white guy from Albuquerque who was my college roomate. I was his best man, and he's the godfather of my son. I would say that at any given time most of my friends have been white. Strange, now that I think about it, but it is due to my interests and career. I've rarely been in a majority-black situation. Not that many black computer- nerds in any given community. I can look back and point to white people, teachers and supervisors, who looked at me during my school and military career and saw something promising in me which they chose to help and encourage. That, I think, is what affirmative action should be -- aggressively seeking out and helping those who are striving to achieve, not setting aside quotas. Those who are busting their buns in the good ol' American tradition *should* be helped over the obstacles that this society otherwise puts in their way. In fact, the segregation of my early school years helped me more than hurt me (you see, the white kids had the school books. We didn't, but that forced our black teachers to scarf up and copy all the newer materials exhibited at the teacher's conferences. When I was in elementary, I was taught math that I didn't see again until college. Also, we had a better grade of teacher, since capable and educated blacks had few other professional options.) But this was an anomaly. I have led a relatively blessed life -- not many blacks have been as fortunate as I have been. My wife's life story makes me cringe. And yet, I have had to deal with racists as well. I would say it is true that almost no black Americans achieve more than 80% of what they would have done, with the same effort, if not for racism. And those who have made it to the top, like Colin Powell, probably deserved to have gotten there years sooner. BTW, you probably needn't have worked so hard. Americans tend to be favorably prejudiced toward Britons. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 108 Tue Dec 31, 1991 J.KRAMER8 [Jeff] at 19:41 EST A very valuable reminder, Kirk. Thanks. Jeff ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 109 Wed Jan 01, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 09:57 EST Karen - Sorry for such a late response, but I have been away. My "fulmination" was toward the Caucasoid group of people, and in light of this you can see why I can they are the cause of WWI, WWII and the Jewish Holocaust and many other atrocities in history. I know it probably seems racist for me to even bring up matters like this, but somethings NEED to be said. After reading Kirks message 92, Dan's message 95 and Bob's message 101, I don't know what else needs to be said, except "what can I do to combat racism"? I have often stated that racism is not a group or community thing, but an individual matter that we all must personally confront each time we are involved, and even when we are not involved directly. Laws can't be passed that will cause one person to love another, nothing can be done today to correct the inequities of the past. "What can I do to combat racism"? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 110 Wed Jan 01, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 20:12 EST Jerry (Kirk and everyone), I think you've made a good start at answering you own question: "What can I do to combat racism". It is an individual matter that we must personally confront. To expand on your point I think we need to hold fast to the theme of the oneness of humanity. This spiritual reality is a dynamic which we nurture. By doing so it empowers us to battle racism on whatever front we encounter it. Abdu'l-Baha', the Son of Baha'u'llah - prophet/founder of the Baha'i Faith, visited this country in 1912. He guides us: "It is impossible to unite unless united." So the Baha'is in this country have been working on uniting our hearts for a while now. First the hearts are united and then the outward social manifestations of unity are addressed. The Baha'i community offers itself a a model for race unity. We have a National Race Unity commitee which, under the direction of the National Spiritual Assembly (of the American Baha'is), has produced "The Vision of Race Unity - America's Most Vital and Challenging Issue", a copy of which is in the GEnie library, #893. It offers many insights on combatting racism. In the foreword to "The Power of Unity - Beyond Predjudice and Racism", a compilation of Baha'i writings by Bonnie J. Taylor of the National Race Unity, is another quote from Abdu'l-Baha': "In every century a particular and central theme is, in accordance with the requirements of that century, confirmed by God. In this illumined age that which is confirmed is the oneness of the world of humanity. Every soul who serveth this oneness will undoubtedly be assisted and confirmed." Warmest Best Wishes for a Happy, Prosperous and United New Year! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 111 Wed Jan 01, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 20:23 EST Hello Daniel: >The Baha'i community offers itself a a model for race unity. We >have a National Race Unity commitee which, under the direction of >the National Spiritual Assembly (of the American Baha'is), has >produced "The Vision of Race Unity - America's Most Vital and >Challenging Issue", a copy of which is in the GEnie library, #893. >It offers many insights on combatting racism. Does this mean we must all be Baha'i in order to have racial unity? --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 112 Wed Jan 01, 1992 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 20:52 EST Kirk, Thanks for your post, very informative. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 113 Wed Jan 01, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 22:04 EST Greetings Peter :-), In my opinion, no, we don't not need to all be Baha'is in order to have racial unity. For example, just look at us here in this topic: we're from diverse religious, social and racial backgrounds, yet we're all devoted to the theme of the oneness of humanity. (At least I haven't noticed anyone against it! :-) ) _ So I think we're weaving a little piece of the tapestry of unity right here on GEnie, and not just in this topic. It's the wonder of this RT: all the different expressions from people of different faiths, races, ages and backgrounds in fundemental agreement on the spiritual verities of love, compassion, honesty, forbearance, etc. _ Unity in diversity means that we cherish our diferences which implies complete tolerance, respect, trust and love. How could I honestly say that I believe in unity if I put any qualifier on it? To me unity and love are an active force that moves in the human heart as a primary dynamic that transcends all outward signs of race, religion or any other category we use to diferentiate each other. For a detailed examination of this subject I urge you to read "The Vision of Race Unity- America's Most Challenging Issue". It's available in the GEnie Religion Library, file # 893. _ Here's a quote by Abdu'l-Baha' on the theme of unity in diversity: _ _ "Your souls are as waves on the sea of the spirit; although each individual is a distinct wave, the ocean is one, all are united in God. Every heart should radiate unity, so that the Light of the Divine Source of all may shine forth broght and luminous. We must not be separate waves alone, but the entire sea. We should rise from the individual to the whole. The spirit is as one great ocean and the waves thereof are the souls of men." An expression of the same theme by Shoghi Effendi, guardian of the Baha'i Faith prior to the establishment of the Universal House of Justice, in a letter to Baha'is throughout the West, dated 3/11/36: "The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Baha'u'llah, implies the establishment of a world commonweath in which all the nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded." Peter, my good friend, I hope that I've answered your question. If not please let me know. Thank you for asking about this issue, it's a very important point. Warmest wishes for a happy, prosperous and united New Year! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 114 Wed Jan 01, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 22:30 EST Hello Daniel: >Unity in diversity means that we cherish our diferences which >implies complete tolerance, respect, trust and love. Thank you for clarifying, Daniel. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 115 Wed Jan 01, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 23:21 EST Peter, >Does this mean we must all be Baha'i in order to have racial unity? Doesn't unity mean unified? Like unified in their diversity? Aren't most things in the universe unified even though most things are different? I don't see why we all must be all anything to achieve racial unity except to recognize the nobility in all people. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 116 Wed Jan 01, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 23:30 EST Hello Bob: >I don't see why we all must be all anything to achieve racialunity >except to recognize the nobility in all people. No one is noble but, God; but I get your gist of it. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 118 Thu Jan 02, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 22:37 EST I like it, Dan! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 119 Thu Jan 02, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 22:38 EST Dear Peter, That is so true, the nobility of God is immeasurably exalted above the attainment of His creatures. The same would be true of all of God's attributes. On the other hand God wants us to grow spiritually and reflect His attributes in our lives. We have to decide between our selfish pursuits and obediance to God's Law. In otherwords, by conquering our natural selfishness we attain to the degrees of nobility latent within it. The nobility of man is a fundemental principal; any activity which helps people to recognize that quality and manifest it in their lives, helps to develop society and unify mankind. When we affirm one another's nobility then we help to establish the bonds of love and trust. Here is one of Baha'u'llah's "Hidden Words" which I think applies: O Son of Spirit! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting. In the battle to defeat racism I think this passage contains the affirmation that we are capable winning, what do you think? :-) Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 120 Thu Jan 02, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 23:46 EST Rick, Thanks for your posts. We all benefit from your input and are moved to increase our efforts. Recently, you described the well-documented effects of racism in the banking industry. East Harlem Interfaith is a community service organization composed of over 40 churches and organizations. Groups and individuals from outside the boundaries of Harlem also work closely with them on social and economic development projects. EHI members are from different faiths, races and classes. The theme is "unity amidst diversity". One of the programs that EHI sponsors is the Community Coalition for Fair Banking (CCFB). Since the establishment of CCFB in 1987 it has worked to increase and improve banking services in East Harlem. Much of their work involves fair lending practices. Another focus is on the Community Reinvestment Act. CCFB's work has lead to a substantial committment of funds available for small businesses,community development projects, housing etc. If you are interested in more detail I'd be glad to send you or other topic members an info package. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 121 Fri Jan 03, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Deusi] at 00:46 EST Let us be noble in our thoughts, our minds, and our hearts; and by our deeds let racism and bigotry die on the vine of injustice. The first step toward lasting peace is tolerance guided by respect. When we judge a man or woman before knowing his heart we strike at our own heart as with a dagger. What is more noble than a hand extended toward a brother. Yet we are all brothers and sisters riding on this world of ours, each with his own ways, his own paths, each different, but each very much the same. Can we unite in friendship as family or shall our differences destroy us? Peter, as you well know, I am not a Fundamentalist. I am not a Christian, and I don't even believe in God. Will you shake a brothers hand? -Ignoro Deusi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 122 Fri Jan 03, 1992 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 01:16 EST Dan, I don't think it was me that mentioned about the banking industry. The banks around here are competing heavily to lend anyone a loan. We're all reducing our debt, getting ready for tough times ahead. I did find out that my Church provides scholarships to third world countries so people can study at their own country's universities. So far the educational fund had helped over 8,000 people. They recipients have to pay _something_ towards their expenses and are encouraged to pay the money back so that others can benefit. Sort of like the old Perpetual Emmigration Fund that Brigham Young set up. Because you all raised my conscienceness on this subject I notice things and programs that are happening in my own backyard. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 123 Fri Jan 03, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 02:27 EST Kirk and Rick, Sorry about the mix-up, I'd meant to address the post about fair-banking (message 120) to Kirk. :-) Glad to hear your consciencenous has risen Rick; I can only hope that mine will do the same..... :-) Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 124 Fri Jan 03, 1992 R.WILLOUGHB4 [Rick] at 02:40 EST Dan, I'm sure your conscienceness is just fine and much higher than mine. My talents are best directed in other areas that I have more desire to support. I don't mind learning about things that I don't normally consider. I live in an area where race is rarely an issue because most of us are the same color. We have other problems that are more pressing that get most of our attention. I guess the real problem I have is that I feel the government is not the answer. That's why I like the private initiate of the Baha'is. So may success be with you. Rick ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 125 Sat Jan 04, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Peter] at 11:00 EST Hi Ignoro Deusi: >Will you shake a brothers hand? I would do that and give you a hug <grin>. Although you are not a Christian, Yeshua told all of us to love our fellow human beings. Yeshua never put a qualifier on His statement to love our fellow human beings; I cannot put one there either. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hello Dan: >That is so true, the nobility of God is immeasurably exalted above >the attainment of His creatures. Correct; which is why I do not believe mankind to be noble, righteous, etc. At least in our present stage. >On the other hand God wants us to grow spiritually and reflect His >attributes in our lives. Agreed. However, from my perspective our reflection pales to His. >The nobility of man is a fundemental principal One I cannot see or agree with. Please do not take this statement as meaning against racial unity. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 126 Sun Jan 05, 1992 MARTINEAU [dean] at 15:35 EST Kirk, my post in message 90 was a bit hasty and ill-considered. To the extent that it served as a catalyst for you to post some valuable insights and heart-felt sentiments, which have all made this topic very much more worth reading, I am happy I said what I said. To the extent that I gave you cause for further pain and discouragement, I am very sorry, and have done something at total variance with my Faith. I hope to do what I can to make amends, for those are very serious matters. There is in fact no question that this is a racist society, and that whites have inflicted and continue to inflict hardship and humiliation on people of color, especially on African-Americans. As a white male, I am a benificiary of a racist society, and it is my job to do what I can to eliminate my own racist tendencies and those which act in society. If I do not do this, I am part of the problem, not part of the solution. I am trying to learn about the experiences of people of color, listen to their (often painful) perspectives, and find out about the differences between us which, if we but appreciated them, would make our world a much richer place to live. I am also trying to speak out, since the sad fact is that whites tend to listen mostly to whites, if they're going to listen to anybody. This gives us white males added responsibility to spread information, like the studies which you mentioned, and which I will be citing in a speech later this month. I feel ashamed that I'm not doing anywhere near all I can do to resolve the problem. The overwhelming contribution of the white-dominated culture to the problem of racism does not alter the current reality, that racism is a common problem. For one thing, if we do not solve it, the consequences will be terrible for us all. I fully expect large-scale bloodshed, because I do not see that people of color and the increasing masses of poor whites will continue to endure the increasing disparity between their lot and that of the white elite. Even if overt bloodshed doesn't occur, racism is spiritually and physically damaging to its victims and spiritually catastrophic to its perpetrators. Since we live in a physical world, it is easy to underestimate the importance of the spiritual damage, but racism stunts the growth of its white perpetrators. Second, and this is what I was alluding to last time, both whites and people of color will have to work if we are to come up with a durable solution. I draw this insight from the Baha'i writings. According to these teachings, each group must reach out a hand of friendship to the other and must be ready to forgive past hurts, regardless of the behavior of the other. This of course assumes a common spiritual commitment by members of both groups. Given this scenario, we Whites have a tremendous lot of work to do, but you people of color may have a tough job, since the fear and mistrust of white people for people of color has little justification in past experience. Kirk, I think you were clear about this, but to emphasize the point: All whites do not receive the same benefits from this society. Indeed, the plight of unemployed and homeless whites in our nation is far from enviable. The crucial point is that none of these things happen to the white victims *because of their skin color. The studies you cited, as well as the experience of people of color, prove that bad things happen to people of color *exclusively because of race. I look forward to continuing to learn from you and to exchanging ideas. Dean ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 127 Sat Jan 11, 1992 M.SIEGEL2 at 09:30 EST Regarding Kwanzaa, see POLITICS Divison (BB #2) Category 2, Topic 13, from the beginning (it deals with racism). Someone told me to read this BB on B'ahai or whatever. Must admit I'm finding it confusing. Who started it and it what year did it start? How popular is it? Sounds like a "cafeteria style" approach, picking and choosing among every philosophy ever thought up. I guess I just don't get it. Is Christianity bad because Jesus was white and Jewish? Some say Jesus WAS a black man, per some black history professor at CUNY. If this is true, maybe it is good after all? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 128 Sat Jan 11, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 21:07 EST Dear M. Siegel, Thanks for your interest in the Baha'i Faith. This particular topic deals with the spiritual challenge of promoting racial unity. Although I'm a Baha'i myself, the views of members of all creeds are welcome here. The Baha'i faith is an independent world religion founded in 1863 by Baha'u'llah. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the "Promised One" whose coming fulfills the prophecies of all the world's religions. The central theme of the Baha'i faith is unity or oneness. The oneness of all humanity and is the impetus for starting this topic. Here is list of Baha'i teachings that I excerpted from one of the files available in the GEnie Relgion and Ethics Library: PRINCIPAL TENETS OF THE BAHA'I FAITH The central teachings of the Baha'i Faith are based on the belief that religion is revealed by a succession of prophets inspired by one God. The pivotal social principle of the Faith is the oneness of mankind, implying: o establishment of universal peace upheld by a world federal system; o elimination of prejudice of all kinds; o recognition of the equality of men and women; o adoption of a universal auxiliary language; o acceptance of the essential harmony of science and religion; o implementation of universal compulsory education; o application of spiritual solutions to the world's problems. National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States Wilmette, Illinois 60091 - 708/869-9039 The following Baha'i files are available in the library: Files 176 and 177 "The Promise of World Peace" #865 Statement on Baha'u'llah #893 "The Vision of Race Unity: America's Most Challenging Issue" #899 A Description of the Baha'i Faith #901 "Tablet of the Christians" by Baha'u'llah For your info, here are the numbers of the Baha'i topics: CAT.TOP 10.17 15.13 15.17 9.8 -----* 9.9 -----* These two topics are perhaps best to start with. 9.10 9.31 9.33 Also, the Faith is discussed extensively in these topics: 10.12 starting with Message #327 10.91 2.11 starting with Message #117 12.57 25.22 25.44 Since the Baha'i Faith has much in common with all religions one might get the impression from a quick perusal that it was created by "picking and choosing" amongst various faiths and philosophies. However, that is not the case. Baha'is believe that is is an independent revelation from God. The same God whose Spirit and Knowledge was present in all the Founders of the religions of the past. If you have any more questions or comments about Baha'i myself or any of the other Baha'is ( and some of the non-Baha'is too! :-) ) will be glad to respond. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan the Baha'i ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 129 Wed Jan 22, 1992 MARTINEAU [dean] at 10:49 EST On page 200 of his book Black Robes, White Justice, which book I highly recommend to any who still do not believe there is a problem of racism in this country, Judge Bruce Wright says, contemplating the whole picture: "It makes one wonder if there is anything in America that will cure the wound of race . . ." The sense of hopelessness which he expresses is, I feel, becoming increasingly common among people who see from this society nothing but oppression and hypocrisy. Given the efforts made by this society to alleviate the gross inequities, I understand how they have become hopeless. Like many, Judge Wright does not see (or at least did not at the time of the writing of his book) spiritual matters as pertinent to the solution of the crisis. For those of us who see the problem as fundamentally spiritual, how can we bring hopeless to the understandably hopeless, and demonstrate the relevance of a spiritual solution? Dean ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 130 Fri Jan 24, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 00:03 EST To all who live near Oakland, Calif. I'd like to invite you to an event the Baha'is of the East Bay are sponsoring called "Models of Race Unity, A Day of Cultural Appreciation and Mutual Respect: Meeting Basic Human Needs and Promoting Racial Equality" The event will be held Saturday, February 1, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. at Preservation Park, 13th St. & Martin Luther King, Jr. Way, in Oakland. The keynote speaker will be Dr. Robert Henderson, Secretary-General of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States. Panelists/Workshop Leaders and Topics will include: Lenise Jackson-Gaertner--"Towards Multi-Ethnicity: Dismantling Attitudes of Racism and Socioeconomic & Cultural Intolerance" and Rev. Chester McCall & Greay Wiley -- "Economics, Education, and Literacy: Creating Equal Access." There will be entertainment and children's activites as well. They are asking $5 registration at the door. For more information call, 510-254-2093 or 510- 763-7151. I'll be there helping with the children's program--hope you can be there, too. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 131 Fri Jan 24, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Dei] at 01:51 EST Wendy, I put it on my calender. Thanks. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 132 Fri Jan 24, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 02:18 EST Ignoro, How exciting! You must find me and introduce yourself. Just ask around where I am--Someone will know. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 133 Fri Jan 24, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 02:26 EST Wendy, Wish I could fly out to attend. sounds like a great program! Robert Henderson is a fantastic speaker. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 134 Fri Jan 24, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 02:40 EST Wish you could, too, Dan. I'm looking forward to the whole thing. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 136 Mon Jan 27, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [MargiC] at 07:30 EST Hi All, I'm new to GEnie and thus to this board. Please bear with me while I catch up. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 137 Mon Jan 27, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 21:02 EST Margi, Don't worry about catching up- just jump right in! Tell us about yourself. What are your views on race relations? If you need any help or advice on using GEnie or getting around in the RT, don't be shy about asking. I'm so glad you you stopped by this topic. Let's see what we can do about revving it up again! Your fellow world citizen, Dan the Baha'i ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 138 Mon Jan 27, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 22:45 EST Hi MargiC, Welcome! So good to have you on GEnie. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 139 Tue Jan 28, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 01:06 EST Hi Dan and Wendy, Anything good cook'in over here? Where's Peacemaker been? -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 140 Tue Jan 28, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 01:55 EST TO: L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] > Anything good cook'in over here? Where's Peacemaker been? Good question, Larry. I've been trying to get him to participate in this topic for weeks. Maybe you can convince him! :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 141 Tue Jan 28, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 02:22 EST Wendy, If I could find him, I would. :) If you see him, tell him I miss his brilliance. -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 142 Tue Jan 28, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 22:06 EST TO: L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] > If I could find him, I would. :) If you see him, tell him I miss >his brilliance. Already done. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 143 Thu Jan 30, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [MargiC] at 00:41 EST Hi Dan, Dean, Larry, Wendy, Kirk, Steve, Bob, Peter, Susan, Rick, W Grim (WG), Ignoro Deusi, Jerry, Michael, Karen, et al Greetings. I'll get this system down with time. Anyway... Kirk, Which member of your family died this past December? I'll add his/her name to my prayers. Reading your posts is an echo of the familiar. My experience also has not been the stereotypic horror of violence and deprivation. But during your litany "...This is not ancient history... This is my childhood and ... *I* remember...", events from my own life served as refrain. Yes indeed, I do remember. Your eloquent post "...I have a love-hate relationship with this country..." reminded me of Robert Hayden's American Journal. confess i am curiously drawn unmentionable to the americans doubt i could exist among them for long however psychic demands far too severe much violence much that repels i am attracted none the less their variousness their ingenuity their elan vital and that some thing essence quiddity i cannot penetrate or name Among other things, he was the first Black person to serve as Poetry Consultant to the Library of Congress. "...attend to survival...." We all have to be careful with that. So much that is a matter of survival within one context keeps us at the subsistance level. MargiC ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 144 Thu Jan 30, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 01:18 EST *u [CHello Larry: It's been a while since I've had the time and the fever necessary to converse on this medium. Wendy has told me twice that you were hailing me in 25.2, so I wandered over and read the kind impression of me you conveyed in your message to her. Thanks, though I am aware enough of my limitations to know such a word as "brilliance " is applicable to me only in my dreams. Whenever time permitted, I "lurked" in order to remain current with the prevailing tides of thought being expressed in my favorite topics. Am I correct in concluding you, also, didn't have the fever, because your postings were almost non-existent over a 3 - 4 week period? Or, are you now focusing your creative thoughts in another forum? Anyway, I am somewhat content in just reading questions and answers. One develop a greater appreciation of the gifts people, especially my favorite people, possess when one can quietly reflect upon their thoughts and points of view without having to contend with the pressures of responding. I also don't have much more to add to what's already said. Though biased, I can't help but be astonished at the quality, scope and "brilliance" of the dialogue my Baha'i sister and brothers have put forth. And, a woman named Miriam has taught me (us?) much about the Jewish faith. God must have opened my eyes a little wider or recently infused the female species with a greater capacity, or both, for I have consistently sat dumbfounded while being overcome with the waves of creative energy emanating from Wendy and Miriam. I converse with both men and women daily. Yet, there seems to be a method women employ in approaching and answering questions that is distinctly different from men's. The love of the "process" involved in one's search for truth as opposed to "the end justifying the means" is what I feel most characterizes the female's approach to intellectual engagement. If correct, this can only be enhanced by their love of God. Regardless of what constitutes the distinction, one truly exists and I'm thankful I can see it as well as learn from it. Another perception I wish to share is I have observed the dialogue becoming more intimate, or at the very least, less distrustful with only a few exceptions. Maybe most of my favorite people are becoming "electronic" friends with each other, or have discovered sufficient reason to demonstrate a great deal of respect for one another beyond that required by protocol and convention. I don't know why I decided to share a few perceptions with you since no one asked for them. But, when one comes back "home", they usually bring a gift hoping it will make up for their absence. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 145 Thu Jan 30, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 01:19 EST MargiC, Great post! Your quote from American Journal was really good. How do we break through the 'subsitance level' in your opinion? -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 146 Thu Jan 30, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 21:18 EST Hi Margi, I can see you will have some interesting additions in this topic! :) Hi James, Please--you don't give yourself enough credit, and you're giving me too much. You have a wonderful voice to add here and a perspective I don't have. Don't keep it to yourself. For instance, what organizations do you see as having the most beneficial influence on society in the area of race relations? Considering the Baha'i Faith's relatively small numbers in this country, how to you view its influence? Thanks for your positive strokes, James. I'll be returning the favor, as you know... :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 147 Thu Jan 30, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 23:37 EST Peacemaker, Great to hear from you! I thought there might be something wrong so I decided to ask around. You don't think I'm to nosey do you?? You know, posts like yours that are so full of goodness and humility could lead to the demise of the religion and ethics BB (no firestorms of contraversy :). Call me a jerk or bigot next time so we don't loose our beloved BBS <g>. Yes, I was absent from here for awhile for many of the same reasons you listed. Sometimes things get to abrasive for me and I disapear - the glory of personal computers - but there IS a good deal to be gained from those who speak real wisdom from God, imho. I believe you made an excellent point by mentioning 'loving the process of discovering truth'. It's that thinking, rather than the absolutist mindset, that is an encouragement to me. Thanks. I see you are part of the Cat.29 experiment, so maybe I'll see you there soon? I'd really like to see things get rolling here, because it's such an important issue, don't you think? It's something that should provoke involvement in people of all religious backgrounds. What do you feel about the words Margi had to offer? (144?) -larry (thanks Wendy and Dan:) ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 148 Fri Jan 31, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 01:37 EST TO: L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] > You know, posts like yours that are so full of goodness and >humility could lead to the demise of the religion and ethics BB > (no firestorms of contraversy :). Call me a jerk or bigot next >time so we don't loose our beloved BBS <g>. Hi Larry, ROFL! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ P.S. Yer welcome. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 149 Fri Jan 31, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 02:00 EST Margi, James, Larry , Wendy Rick and everybody, Thank you all for your beautiful, loving and insightful posts. I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning; showered with gifts from a loving family! Tonight I shifted over from Commodore to IBM PC. I downloaded Aladdin e this evening. So for the next couple of days I really will be like a kid with new toys. Now, all I have to do is discipline myself not to stay up all night playing wiht them. Much love to you all, :-) Your fellow world-citizen, Dan 8s ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 150 Fri Jan 31, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 02:09 EST Larry: >Great to hear from you! I thought there might be something wrong so I >decided to ask around. You don't think I'm to nosey do you?? Shucks, no. >You know, posts like yours that are so full of goodness and humility >could lead to the demise of the religion and ethics BB (no firestorms of >controversy :). Call me a jerk or bigot next time so we don't loose our >beloved BBS <g>. Well, if you insist. >.. 'loving the process of discovering truth'. It's that thinking, rather >than the absolutist mindset, that is an encouragement to me. Thanks. I'm still learning that one and it requires a lot of unlearning. But, believe me, I rely upon the few who have somewhat mastered it to lead me. >I see you are part of the Cat.29 experiment.. It's such a peaceful place over there...almost havenly (not quite heavenly). >What do you feel about the words Margi had to offer? (143?) What can be said about the effects of perversion practiced upon fellow human beings? I sincerely believe only via the poetic verse or through song can expression be given to the sorrow of souls which fall victim to man's hatred of humanity. Merely recounting the pain and suffering in structured sentences usually informs only the intellect of the listener or reader. And, our minds have a peculiar way of removing the horror from the horrible. Robert Hayden speaks of being attracted, still, to those who diminish him. This phenomenon, I believe, is a universal one. For, it speaks to the yearning for brotherhood which is intrinsic to our souls. Our bond has many interfaces - our blood, our humanity, and our seeking the same reality. Yet, our truest and strongest tie to each other is through our Lord. Maybe this is the primary, unspoken reason it was religiously necessary for slaves to be dehumanized. But, maybe not. It was during the early seventies while driving my wife, my brother and his wife through Mississippi that the car's brakes failed. It was my brother's car - a nice convertible. He had recently returned from Viet Nam and was recovering from some bug contracted over there. I finally got the car stopped using the emergency brake. We had just come through a one intersection rural community consisting of a gas station, a farm equipment business, and a blinking caution light at the intersection. It was a back road - a shortcut to our destination, and the traffic was sparse to say the least. I backed the car to the gas station lot, using all my skill to avoid hitting any of the cars there. Confident of quick service, I went in and asked for help. The man behind the counter had grease all over his shirt so naturally I asked him to look at the brakes. The local sheriff was in there too, quietly sitting and reading the newspaper. The mechanic said he wasn't doing any more work that day but told me of another auto garage down the side road. So, with words of caution and care from my family, I walked to the next garage and spoke to what seemed to be a very friendly mechanic. He accompanied me back to the gas station, but first went inside instead of looking at the brakes. He returned in a few minutes and started walking back to his garage. I ran to catch up with him and then asked him why he was leaving. He replied "I can't fix your car", and continued walking. Upon returning to the gas station, I discovered my sick brother attempting to move the car. To my surprise, he said the owner told him to move it for it was blocking something. Well, I moved it across the two lane highway onto the lot of the farm equipment store. It was near closing time and I was informed they didn't have any mechanics on duty on Saturday anyway. No long distance calls were allowed but a Greyhound bus would be coming through tomorrow morning. The thought of spending a Mississippi night along the side of the road didn't appeal to any of us. In fact, by this time my wife was almost hysterical and my brother was laying down on the seat in great pain. Willing to explore all options, I again walked into the gas station and inquired about the existence of any other garage. The greasy one said "Yea, there's one a few miles away. To get there, go back up the road for about a mile and make a left onto the first dirt road you see. He's about 3 miles down that dirt road". Black people may look dumb, but... Did I begin to pray? No. Was I afraid? Yes. But when the "sheriff" leaned his chair back on two legs and said "I'll bet you boys have guns in that car" I immediately responded "you're damn right we do". I lied, and I was hoping my rely didn't immediately bring the forces of evil down on us via some illegal "carrying" charge. After getting back in the car, and after noticing a lot of men driving pick up trucks going into the gas station but none coming out, I concluded I had to do something before the approaching darkness fell. I couldn't risk driving away because that would have brought immediate arrest for driving an unsafe vehicle. And, Black people were known to disappear either going to a Mississippi jail or after getting there. Whatever needed to be done, I had to do it. A thought flashed through my mind; the next car that comes down that road was going to be stopped by me. The risk was an obvious one, but one I had to take nevertheless. After waiting for a few minutes, I saw one approaching from a mile away. I started to get out of the car and my wife, in tears, begged me not to leave. She watched me as I walked to the middle of the road with my arms waving above my head. The car slowed, and it was a Black man. I explained our dilemma. He smiled and drove over to our car. He opened his trunk and there was a thousand tools shining like diamonds. He was a mechanic. And it took him 3 minutes to crimp the broken brake line to stop it from leaking brake fluid. After refilling the brake fluid and slamming the hood, we shook hands because he wouldn't accept any money. Did I speed away? Yes. Did I pray? Yes. Will I ever forget? No. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 151 Fri Jan 31, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 18:17 EST Peacemaker, <Whew> Hoofbeats in the night. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 152 Fri Jan 31, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 21:28 EST Gosh, James, your story's been haunting me all day. Thank you so much for sharing and helping us to understand. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 153 Fri Jan 31, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 22:07 EST Kirk and Wendy: This is a true story and every word I shared with you is also true. Most of my insights regarding this incident belong in this topic; the remaining are more appropriate under a "religion" topic. The central point of this story is that I had only one chance to get my family out of that situation alive, and I took it. There is no doubt, none whatsoever, that our Lord instructed me to flag down that particular car He had sent to us. No doubt! I wouldn't have been able to make that attempt twice, because I truly believe the men in the gas station would have prevented me from doing so. My audacity caught them off gaurd. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 154 Sat Feb 01, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 01:19 EST TO: J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] >There is no doubt, none whatsoever, that our Lord instructed me >to flag down that particular car He had sent to us. No doubt! Knowing you, dear James, I have no doubt either. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 155 Sat Feb 01, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 18:39 EST James, What a penetrating story. I love you, man! -larry p.s.- I accidently sent this post to the wrong Top. <g> They were arguing about whether God was a boy or a girl or something, and here comes larry's post to James.:) The Lord must have made my finger's slip I suppose:) ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 156 Sat Feb 01, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 20:39 EST Larry: Well, if they need more fuel for their fire, I love you too. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 157 Sun Feb 02, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 01:05 EST Hi Larry and James, >James, > What a penetrating story. I love you, man! >Larry: >Well, if they need more fuel for their fire, I love you too. You guys just kill me! :) I love you both too. I spent all day at a conference on Race Unity. It was beautiful--the human race was represented in all its diversity. The people were happy to be there together. But my sense of the urgency of the problem of racism in America was increased so much I feel overwhelmed. I must think over everything I heard today before commenting on it, but I just wanted to ask that we continue here to talk about it in an effort to figure out solutions. I learned things today which indicated our country is in more serious trouble than I had thought, and I grieve for us. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 158 Sun Feb 02, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 17:28 EST Wendy, Please tell us more about the Race Unity Conference and why you feel such a sense of urgency. I think it's important that we talk about these things because we get used to living with a situation and it doesn't feel like a crisis anymore, and the things which cause the problem are overlooked. There is so much pain here in NYC. The years and years of entrenched racism have wounded this city to its heart. We desparately need a vision of unity to hold before us so that we can start the healing process. One of our local young Baha'is started a Race Unity club at his High School. Several faculty members and about twenty students are participating. They use the "Vision of Race Unity" statement as a guide for discussion and planning activities. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 159 Sun Feb 02, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 18:13 EST Can someone tell me WHY there is so much hatred, dislike, distrust and prejudice against the black race. And please don't insult my intelligence or give the standard patronizing answers like all races are prejudice to some degree against another; or all whites are not prejudice against blacks or I don't hate blacks. This is a serious matter and a serious problem that deserves our honest answers. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 160 Sun Feb 02, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Dei] at 19:15 EST Well Jerry, here goes. I should probably start with some caveat about me not being racist etc, etc, but instead I'll just assume that you won't make that kind of judgment against me for what you are about to hear. Many of those I have met who are in their latter years 60+ have grown up knowing Blacks as being uneducated folks and perhaps uneducatable. These people are racist because they think Blacks are intellectually inferior. To top it off these folks have their belief reinforced by national test scores which show Blacks doing relatively poor on college entrance exams. These people see the usual argument that the test were biased and unfair as a cop- out. Those of us in the work force may or may not have had contact with Blacks. Those of us who have personal contact and have made friends are much less racist than those who haven't. Very often our views are handed down from our parents, grandparents until we something to change it. Another strike against Blacks is the over representation of poor, uneducated Blacks on television as opposed to the educated, successful Blacks. There are a couple of very popular programs on TV in my area which each spend an hour a week detailing the life and work of police officers. The cameras go right into the houses with the police on drug busts, murders, rapes, you name it. Many if not most of the criminals on the shows are Black. This only adds to peoples preconceptions. -Ignoro Dei ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 161 Sun Feb 02, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 20:48 EST ahemm...Attention!: For those that may be interested, Bill Moyer's: Hate on Trial, is on PBS at 8:00p.m. eastern on Wednesday evening. Go Bill:) -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 162 Sun Feb 02, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 23:06 EST Ignoro Deli, Thanks for you honest and open answers. I believe if more of us were this straightforward and to the point, we could at least begin to understand the causes of racial disharmony and look for workable solutions to [D [D [D [D. Does anybody know or even care why blacks, indians and hispanics do poorlly on college entrance exams and IQ test? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 163 Sun Feb 02, 1992 G.SWOBE [Gordon] at 23:19 EST >Ignoro Deli <grin> I'll take a Pastrami on Rye, Ignoro. (Sorry. I couldn't resist.) ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 164 Sun Feb 02, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 23:26 EST Jerry, I know it has nothing to do with inate intelligence. I don't think it's humanly possible to create a test that isn't culturaly scewed, and since America is multi-cultural, any evaluation falls miserably short of an accurate assessment, imho. -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 165 Sun Feb 02, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 23:49 EST So what you are saying Larry is that because "any evaluation falls miserably short of an accurate assessment", we are to continue to use methods that are grossly "culturaly scewed". That's a cop-out if I ever heard one. Of course we can create test that are not completely racially biased, but this is so obvious that I won't even discuss it further. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 166 Mon Feb 03, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 00:11 EST >...but this is so obvious that I won't even discuss it further. No Jerry, the above is a cop out. I DON'T think these methods should continue to be used because they ARE biased. Geesh. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 167 Mon Feb 03, 1992 MARTINEAU [dean] at 02:09 EST I haven't been putting in my two cent's worth for several days, and I continue to be overwhelmed at the profundity of the posts, especially by Peacemaker. It's very good to have you around so regularly. Incidentally, you mentioned in another topic a talk you gave recently to commemorate Martin Luther King's life. Since you offered, I would like a copy emailed to me, and I even wonder if it would be appropriate to post here. I continue to be amazed and saddened by what my people apparently still do to my contemporaries among yours, and for no good reason. We must insist upon the oneness of mankind. It's the only solution. Dean ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 168 Mon Feb 03, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 02:12 EST Jerry, >Does anybody know or even care why Blacks, Indians and Hispanics do poorly on college entrance exams and IQ tests?< Intelligence in the west is primarily a measure of linguistic and mathematic skills. Intelligence tests are biased toward the white majority and as such often times members of the groups listed above score lower. Linguistic and mathmatic skills are just two of several major areas of intelligence. Others would include but not be limited to music, art, spatial relationship, logic, etc. I would suggest the book "Frames of Mind, the theory of Multiple Intelligence," I can't remember the author, if you are interested in this sort of thing. One thing that is important to remember when discussing racism is that very often white people unaware of how entrenched their feeling of superiority is. It is even sometimes unconcious. Another book you might be interested in is called "The Nature of Prejudice" by Gordon W. Allport, a must for anyone interested in this sort of thing and also "To Move the World" by Gayle Morrison. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 169 Mon Feb 03, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 18:15 EST Ignoro, Good post. It goes to show how imprtant it is for people of diferrent races to get to know one another intimately. These fallacies which support racism wither in the light of fellowship, reunion and knowledge. Why do we continue to deny ourselves the precious joy of love and communion with our brothers and sisters of races other than our own. These ancienct lies have go to go! Jerry, Refering to your question as to why blacks, indians and hispanics do poorly on college entrance exams and IQ tests: I don't know that that is true. I recently attended East Harlem Interfaith's Dr. Martin Luther King Day Scholarship Breakfast. Three students from the local community were awarded scholarships towards their college expenses based on their high school academic acheivements and an essay contest. I believe these young people can compete on any intellectual level despite the disadvantage of a local public school system that leaves much to be desired. I think that children succed in school when their families and communities support, nurture and encourage them. One of the sad reasons that minority kids have trouble in school is that society in general, even their friends, family and peers, are telling them in one way or another that they are inferior. Institutionalized racism has been excluding minorities from the good jobs, housing and schools for generations. Even so, we've seen ample proof that with encouragement and support these kids can flourish. Harlem Prep is a shining example of this. So is the true story of the Hispanic kids in stand and deliver. This country cannot stand to waste the talent and energy of the young who are trapped in the blighted inner city ghettos, or the rural poor either. What is the solution? Quoting from the "Vision of Race Unity" (GEnie file #893): "It is entirely human to fail if that which is most important people's self- perception is denied them-namely, the dignity they derive from a genuine regard by others for their stature as human beings. No educational, economic, or political plan can take the place of this essential human need; it is not a need that businesses and schools, or even governments, can provide in isolation from the supportive attitude of society as a whole. Such an attitude needs to be grounded in a spiritual and moral truth that all acknowledge and accept as their own and that, like the oxygen that serves all equally, breathes life into their common efforts to live in ujnity and peace. Absence of the genuine regard for others fostered by such truth causes hopelessness in those discriminated against; and in a state of hopelessness, people lose the coherent moral powers to realize their potential. This vitalizing truth, we are convinced, is summarized in the phrase: the oneness of humankind." Indeed, when we start knowing in our hearts that we are all members of the same family, we let some of children be ignored and deprived while others have access to all the opportunity in this great nation. Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 170 Mon Feb 03, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 18:26 EST Jerry, You might find that the results of blacks, Indians, and Latins are about on par with those of poor whites, especially in southern and mountain rural areas. I won't give a cop out answer about culturally biased tests, because I don't accept that. This is the culture, we're in it, and the tests fit it. Up until the mid sixties, blacks were steadily improving, even against outright efforts of whites to stifle improvement. Too many blacks did too well in the face of outright oppression for me to accept that the current situation is too much to bear. Unfortunately, a whole generation of blacks brought up in the sixties bought the idea that we were supposed to have a problem with education. We were told that the government owed us a living, and that the government would take care of us, and we believed it. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 171 Mon Feb 03, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 21:09 EST Sorry about the cop-out Larry, but this subject does that to me. Thanks Bob, for those book references, but I'm not the one that should be [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [Cwho should be reading them. I AM interested in racism, but from an active view point, not just reading about it. Is "white superiority" what racism is all about? Dan - That's a beautiful post. It says what most people claim to believe in their heart. But we can talk until we are blue in the face about the oneness of humankink, but until we take a stand and start doing something, there will always be only three non-white students out of millions who will be recognized for their academic acheivements. Kirk - You mentioned blacks steadily improving in the mid sixties. What caused that improvement and why was it not duplicated in the seventies, eighties and nineties? Is education really the answer? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 172 Tue Feb 04, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 19:07 EST Jerry, Blacks progressed *until* the mid sixties. I have no doubt the Great Society programs are the cause of the end our our progress. The message of the Great Society was "you can't do it unless we help you." Among the poor, the government became the father of the household and the man no longer had a place. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 173 Tue Feb 04, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 22:03 EST I'm really confused! The Great Society programs, as Kirk calls them, I thought were to help people progress. I thought government was saying "you can do it, let me help you". What was the modivating force before the mid sixties and why did it stop when help was extended? It sounds to me like blacks want hellp, but don't want help? ? ? [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C [C ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 174 Wed Feb 05, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 18:25 EST Jerry, Some people point directly to Aid to Dependent Children as being a specific program that helped destroy black families. The government was willing to give families more money than the father was able to earn, but only if the father moved out. Daniel Moynihan, back in 1969, drew considerable heat when he observed that ADC destroyed black families and that blacks would be better off being neglected by the government rather than "helped." But he was right. Curiously, forced integration has also hurt more than it has helped, particularly at the primary and secondary levels. Most people don't realize that Mrs. Brown's problem with the Topeka school board was not segregation per se but that her daughter was not allowed to go to the school nearest her home. I was in a similar situation. I lived on the boarder line between the black and white sections of town (Enid, Oklahoma). The nearest school, only three blocks away, was Franklin Roosevelt, but it was for whites only. I had to walk two miles to George Washington Carver. Now, in the name of integration, we are busing children dozens of miles from their homes. The problem this creates is that parents are removed entirely from the education process. Even in Carver, the constant interation between parents and teachers was central and vital. The principal was also my Sunday School superintendent. The music teacher played piano in the Church down the street. Our parents saw our teachers several times each week -- they were members of the same community. Today, my son's teachers don't even live in the same state as we do. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 175 Wed Feb 05, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 21:03 EST It seems as though after the death of Dr. M. L. King, blacks have not had a spokesperson with whom white leaders could communicate, or anyone to stand up and say "this is what my people need or want". All I ever see are isolated incidents of individuals voicing their opinions occasionally. About busing - It looks like what was gained was no more white only and black only schools. What else was gained? Kirk, you say that your principal was also your Sunday school super, and the music teacher played piano in the Church and they were members of the same community. It sounds like you are saying blacks were better off in segrated communities.... Blacks once were, and probably still are the largest minority of people in America today, why can't they work together to accomplish what they want? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 176 Thu Feb 06, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 07:22 EST Jerry, >It sounds like you are saying blacks were better off in segregated communities... No, I'm saying that children are better off when their schools and their teachers are in the same communities they are in. Then there can be real solidity between parents and teachers seeking their common goal, the education of the children. The good thing about my childhood setup was that the goals and ideas of my teachers were closely aligned with those of my parents, and my teachers and parents knew and trusted each other. We erred, IMHO, by sending our children to fight the battle we adults should have been fighting (I speak from an odd position, in that I was one of those children at the time). The problem was not segregated schools, the problem was segregated neigborhoods. We see now that integrating the schools has done nothing to integrate neighborhoods, but integrating neigborhoods would have automatically integrated schools. Granted, integrating neighborhoods was not something that could be done by a simple rap of a judge's gavel, but the correct thing is almost always the most difficult to accomplish. Further, integrating schools by busing destroyed the link between parents and teachers. In my childhood, we may not have had the best facilities or books, but we had teachers fiercely dedicated to teaching us, and parents fiercely dedicated to supporting them. It was a case of "learn, child, or die!" If we had to be punished by our teachers (and every one had a rubber hose!) we would face a second punishment when our parents found out about is (which they would, by Sunday at the latest). That is no longer the case. Black children are taught by people who don't know them, don't know their parents, don't know their backgrounds, don't know their problems or strengths, and don't particularly care. Teachers who are teaching children from their own neighborhoods *automatically* care. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 177 Thu Feb 06, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 20:21 EST Kirk, You made some great points. I think the key to desgregating communities starts with an attitude that that transcends the old barriers of segregated neighborhoods. When more and more people sart appling the principle of the oneness of humanity they will begin to think of themselves of members one community. More and more people will think of the kids in the poorer school districts as being just as important as the kids in the wealthy districts. In this world of ever-increasing complexity our society can no longer afford to have great numbers of under-educated kids coming out of the inner-city and rural poor school systems. Here's a quote from the "Vision of Race Unity" on this: "So essential is the principle of the oneness of humanity to the efficacy of educational programs that it cannot be overemphassized. Without its broad influence such programs will not contribute significantly to the development to society. The very fact that businesses are themselves implementing educational programs is indicative of the glaring defiencies of the entire educational system. As we have already said, beyond the mechanisms of education lies the essential prerequisite of a proper attitude on the part of those dispensing curricula and, even more important, on the part of society as a whole. On this basis, education is not only the shortest route out poverty; it is the shortest route out of prejudice as well. A natioanl program of education, emphasizing the values of tolerance, brotherhood, appreciation for cultures other than one's own, and respect for differences would be a most important step toward the elimination of racism and, as a consequence, the bolstering of the economy." Envision, if you will, a generation of kids educated in schools which foster these values. Our entire society would be regenerated and a new day of peace and prosperity would begin! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 178 Thu Feb 06, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 20:50 EST I agree that when teachers, parents and children are from the same community there is more caring, sharing and an over-all better communications link. The solution to the problem in your last post is intregration of our neighborhoods. I can slowly see that coming about now. There are very neighborhoods in America that are not becoming racially mixed. Maybe when we get to the point when people can live where they want to regard- less of the color of their skin, then we can get off this busing nightmare. Why hasn't someone come forw ard to fill M.L.King's shoes? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 179 Thu Feb 06, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Dei] at 22:50 EST What do you think about forced military acadamy for all those with failing grades? Weekend and holiday passes only. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 180 Fri Feb 07, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 02:55 EST Ignoro, I dont know much about forced military academy, perhaps you could tell us about it. It might be ok if it was voluntary... :-) Your fellow soldier in the march to Race Unity, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 181 Fri Feb 07, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Dei] at 03:43 EST Dan, the problem as I see it is lack of discipline and education among an increasingly larger segment of our population, and the quickest way out of the mess is to grab one generation and turn it around. If children won't voluntarily enter this bootcamp school program, should we allow their constitutional rights of freedom and liberty to destroy us? What good are these rights to the uneducated, inner-city dropout who cannot hold down a job? Where are his rights when he looks out between prison bars wondering what went wrong? In the larger cities this is too serious a problem to just let it slide till doomsay. Those who are flunking out of society need help now. -Ignoro Dei ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 182 Fri Feb 07, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 20:27 EST Hi: Just a passing thought concerning "uneducated" people in the inner-city. There's no question that discipline is lacking in that environment. Yet, we must always keep in mind that it was the "educated" minds that have placed this country in dire straits. Education and discipline don't equate to a high standard of morality. In fact, one may find a higher degree of morality among the uneducated. But, I, too, see the need for greater discipline. Usually, this characteristic is best instilled when self-esteem and "hope for a better tomorrow" are also included in the training package. Also, the most radical, ruthless segment of the inner-city population is attempting to create a social-economic structure in the vacuum of poverty. That their actions and behaviors are anti-social, to say the least, is an indication of how they feel about the norms and traditions of the greater society. They aren't idiots. They see corruption in all levels of government and society. They were probably raised no more than a few blocks from where they will eventually die. And, they have had far fewer choices than what we computer users take for granted. Yet, of course, something needs to be done. But, let's not assume the solution to the problem begins in the inner-city. Maybe it begins on Wall Street, or in the White House, or in our own hearts. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 183 Fri Feb 07, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 22:23 EST Ignoro Dei - You are joking about "forced military academies" aren't you? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 184 Fri Feb 07, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Dei] at 23:26 EST Jerry, it was first suggested to me by a Black elder whom I respect. My first reaction to the idea was that taking children away from their parents five days a week would be immoral, but the more I think about it the more I'm convinced it would work. Can you really change a child's self image as long as he remains in a culture that perpetuates that feeling of worthlessness? -Ignoro Dei ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 185 Sat Feb 08, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 00:10 EST Hi dear James, Great post! You reminded me of some things Dr. Robert Henderson said when he gave the keynote address at the Race Unity conference I went to in Oakland last weekend. He said, "Institutionalizing unity won't help." He said, "Unity starts with me." And he said, "We can't allow hatred and fear to define our own standards." In conjunction with that last idea, he told a story of a time when he was 18 and had travelled with a group of college students to big Baha'i race unity picnic somewhere in the South. An incident happened which made a big impression on him. The Ku Klux Klan showed up and tried to disrupt things. One of them got right in the face of one of the Black students, yelling obscenities and racial slurs. The student, who was quite large and could have decked the guy if he had wanted to, took it serenely. Finally, he calmly told the man words to the effect that, "You can hate me as much as you like, but I will not allow you to interfere with my commitment to love you." Like I mentioned here when I returned home, it was a powerful, emotional day last Saturday... Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 186 Sat Feb 08, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 00:54 EST Ignoro, Actually, a year or two of service by all youths would be very beneficial to both society and their self-images. It used to be the military draft which accomplished a sort of equalizing function. Now that we don't have a draft anymore, I think a draft into some sort of service would be terrific. I'm not the first to think of this (I remember Rep. Pete Stark talking about it years ago), but it hasn't been mentioned much lately. The benefits of the miliary were that it put people together from different parts of the country, enabled them to get to know each other, work together, and overcome differences, plus it taught skills which could be useful when the person came back into non- military life. If we could have our youth, all of them, give a year or two in community service to a hospital, or the Peace Corps, or a homeless shelter, or juvenile detention center, local police or fire departments, some kind of service, this would accomplish the same thing. Plus it would get a lot of things done that might not get done otherwise. Just a thought. As to your idea of military school, I'm not so sure that's the greatest idea, but what I do think would accomplish some of what you had in mind would be the use of uniforms in public schools. When the kids all dress alike, it makes it hard to have class prejudice which might result if some kids have better clothes than others. Also, it demonstrates visually a certain equality among the students. If they are all dressed the same, they must be basically the same. Kids would be forced to deal with each other more intellegently and more from the heart, and would not base their relationships on appearances as much. Just another thought... Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 187 Sat Feb 08, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 04:06 EST I tried to upload a thought on this a couple of days ago, but my Aladdin got confused and tried to upload it into Cat 0. I think by "military school" Ignoro is talking about those Southern "military- like" boarding schools which many Southern ante-bellum aristocrats used to (and still do) send their young boys. I think the idea has merit. There have been some limited programs that took inner city boys out of their failure-bound environments and placed them into invironments that stressed success, self-development, teamwork, etc, without the competing degradations of their home neighborhoods. These programs have shown a great deal of success, and many blacks would like to see things like this done on a greater scale. Wealthy people do it, so can we. The military has served such a purpose for a long time. Contrary to the exclamations of our so-called black leaders in the early days of Desert Shield, it isn't the black youth who were losers in civilian life who join the military, it's the black youth who are winners in spirit but don't have other opportunities. They found a way out of the inner city beside a coroner's wagon. Boys and girl's schools even in the city might help, as might uniforms. Black parents have overwhelming given their nods to both ideas, but wrong-headed civil-libertarians have successfully blocked attempts at these innovations. That's one of the reasons blacks are beginning to reconsider just who our friends really are. Kirk ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 188 Sat Feb 08, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 16:12 EST Thanks for the wonderful dialogue folks. If any of you live near NYC I hope you attend a special event sponsored by the NYC Baha'i Community on Sunday, Feb. 16. at the NYC Baha'i Center as a part of this month public events schedule. This month, BTW, the theme is "Creating the Oneness of Humanity - A celebration of Black History Month". The special event on the 16th at 2pm is "The Vision of Race Unity" Robert C. Henderson and William Davis of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is will be the speakers. It's free and all are welcome! The Baha'i Center is at 53 East 11th Street, between Broadway and University. For more info call: 212- 674-8998 I've heard Mr. Henderson before and he's certainly a dynamic speaker, I'm sure Wendy can testify to that too. This current discussion on education, etc., has been just great. Thank you all so much! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 189 Sat Feb 08, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 22:24 EST Wendy: Thanks for your kind words. BTW, I have hand-carried your questions regarding "Apocalypse Unsealed" to Bob Riggs. He will mail his answers to me and I will post them or E-mail them, whichever you prefer. He said your questions were very good. So, expect something in a few days. The recent conference you attended must have had an unsettling affect upon you. I wish I could have been there, to see the multi-colored flowers of the Baha'i garden and to experience the world's future. I recall participating in a week-long "laboratory" designed to teach us about social "power". Clergy, nuns, community organizers, etc were there. It was held in a secluded retreat and directed (guided) by professionals trained in the Saul Alinsky school of social change. The thirty, or so, of us eventually found ourselves taking sides along racial issues. Two groups emerged, and each belonged to one or the other. Nothing was contrived, or forced; everything happened as it would in the larger society. Protest marches occurred as a result of injustices inflicted by the "status quo". No physical violence was permitted, yet there were many occassions when it would have been deemed necessary. Tears of anger, frustration and self-pity flowed constantly. The "status quo" couldn't understand what they were doing wrong. We were friends when we entered this "lab"; what changed? I should mention that I was the only Black person there, yet those who chose the "minority" position felt, for the first time, what it was like to be denied "power" over their own lives. And, I must admit that when it was over, I went onto my hotel balcony and cried like a baby because I was forced to see that there was no hope of the races uniting. I saw this, I experienced this, I came to this conclusion even though I was unanimously voted the "one who made the most valuable contibution". This occurred in the mid-seventies - before I discovered the spiritual power of Baha'u'llah. It's correct that protest and political remedies won't bring humanity together - only the Lord of the Age. James P S, please excuse the typos. I typed this on-line. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 190 Sun Feb 09, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 04:16 EST Hi James, Yes, the conference did unsettle me, not because of the conference itself, because of what I learned about the condition of society for all sorts of minorities. Tonight I had Vonda Turner and Rob Allen, who sang at the conference, sing at my fireside (an informal discussion on the Baha'i Faith at my home). Rob mentioned something he thought was very remarkable about the conference. Although there were people there of all colors and I don't know how many national backgrounds, Baha'is and friends of the Faith, and the subject matter was sensitive and emotional, he never heard one argument. I didn't either. There was a feeling of common concern there, a unified commitment that no matter who we are or what color we are, or what had happened to us in the past, we were there to find solutions to the disease of racism and that solution was going to start within each person there. I really wish you could have been there, James. It was very wonderful. It would have been an interesting contrast for you to compare it with that laboratory you spoke of. Although that was a week compared to one day, and some tears were shed at the conference as well, the spirit was definitely one of conciliation. I look for many positive effects from last weekend. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 191 Sun Feb 09, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 22:52 EST Will there ever be Spiritual unity in America? It the answer to that question is no..don't ever expect to achieve racial unity. Some one once said, in a post in this category, that racial disunity and most other problems, are spiritual. If one understand spiritual matters, you know that is absolutely correct. If the love of God was in each of us, there would be racial harmony, there would be little if any poverty in the world, there would be adequate and decent housing for all. We can talk about racial unity until we are blue in the face, but until the love of God enters our heart, we don't stand a chance to unite. How can we expect carnal people to provide answers to spiritual problems? Racial Unity - Possibly a MYTH ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 192 Sun Feb 09, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 23:10 EST Jerry: Are you stating that "the love of God is absent" in the majority of hearts? Is this your contention, or am I mis-reading your statement? James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 193 Sun Feb 09, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 23:25 EST Peacemaker, You tell me... Do you think the Love of God dwells in the hearts of people who would see others have needs and shut up their bowels of compassion? Do you think the love of God dwells in the hearts of people who hate their fellow human beings without a cause? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 194 Mon Feb 10, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 00:31 EST Jerry, The love of God has entered the hearts of millions and millions of people all over the earth, from all religious and racial backgrounds. No one is perfect, however, or becomes an angel in the blink of an eye, but I've seen people come pretty close. In fact I think a few of those near angels might be here on GEnie and I can assure you that the love of God has entered their hearts in the most profound way. One of them just had a birthday recently. :-) I think that the more numbers of people let the love of God rule their hearts and strive to adhere to His Teachings ( the Oneness of Mankind being one of them ), then, the more the forces of unity will predominate the forces of selfishness, hatred, prejudice and disunity. In my recent experience amongst people of great diversity here in racially troubled NYC, I have personally witnessed this most glorious phenomenon. I have seen lives tranformed. Hatred and mistrust replaced by love and unity. God has a Covenant with mankind. He told us to worship Him and follow His teachings, and, if we do that, he'll show us the way out of whatever troubles beset us. He has promised us the Kingdom of God on earth. He wouldn't ask us to hold up our end of the bargain for a goal that is unattainable. No, His bounty, glory and mercy is unfathomable, limitless. The evidences of it are all around us. In the "Vision of Race Unity" the oneness of humanity is described as: "The pivot round which revolve all the teachings of the Baha'i Faith, is a statement of principle and an assertion of the ultimate goal of human existance on the planet." If we accept this as God's law for this day, then we can expect the blessings and confirmations of the Lord as we endeavor to practice it in our daily lives. This bounty is accessible to all, whatever our backgrounds. So, in answer to your question, I don't expect people to provide the answers; I know that God has. "O my God! O my God! Unite the hearts of Thy servants, and reveal to them Thy great purpose. May they follow Thy commandments and abide in Thy law. Help them, O God, in their endeavor, and grant them strenght to serve Thee. O God! Leave them not to themselves, but guide their steps by the light of Thy knowledge, and cheer their hearts by love. Verily, Thou art their Helper and Lord." - Baha'u'llah The Baha'i call this the unity prayer. It works! :-) Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 195 Mon Feb 10, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 17:57 EST Jerry, >Will there ever be Spiritual Unity in America?< This is a large question. I could say yes, and let it go at that but you have asked for so much more that I feel compelled to quickly run through a couple of things. You said that we can talk about racial unity until we are blue in the face but until the love of God enters our heart, we don't stand a chance to unite. I agree with this pretty much. I don't think talking until we are blue in the face will change anything. It is only when after talking, and searching within ourselves and listening to the word of God that hopefully WE will change and endeavor to show others that unity is not only necessary for the advancement of our race, it has been ordained by God. God has ordained this unity. It matters not what we think or feel, whether we work for it or against it; it is ordained. Period. All that we can do is lessen the length of time that it takes for mankind to accept its' fundamental unity. One thing I find helpful is to share stories. Here's one of mine - My name is Robert Parrish. I am a salesman and often people (white, Black, Asian, etc) will comment that I "look different on TV," or "is that your brother who plays for the Celtics," etc. I always say something like "no, that's not me, he's my cousin." This usually brings a "yeah, right," from the person trying to make the joke and I tell them, "no, really. He's my cousin." They almost always say something like "c'mon, no way is he your cousin. You're joking, right?" And I say "Really, he's my cousin." After a while they begin to believe me. It is then that I tell them that if we include 50th cousins as part of our family, we are related to everyone on the planet. This is a fact. You and I are no further apart than 50th cousin. This may not do much for anybody, but I'll tell you one thing, nobody who has heard this story cracks any racist jokes around me and I like to believe that this gives them something to think about. My family enjoys living in a multi-cultural neighborhood. We have 10-15 parties, barbeques or what I call "serious music nights" per year. We usually have about 50 people over and on many occaisions there is no clear majority of race or culture. It's a mix. When we barbeque my wife and I provide the 'que and it's potluck on the rest. These are FUN events. Both my wife and I have had numerous people tell us that this is the first time when they have experienced a gathering where there were so many different kinds of cultures and races and everybody just hung out having a good time. I am sure that some of those people didn't just go home to be the way they were. I am also sure that some of them will be more outspoken with regards to racism. So much for my stories. The bottom line is that the elimination of prejudice is YOUR responsibility just as it is MINE. I find that one of the wonderful things about this board is the inspiration I get when I hear of what is going on in other parts of the country. None of us here are alone in our fight. Hang in there. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 196 Mon Feb 10, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 19:40 EST Dan & Bob, There is much truth, wisdom and love in what you both have said. Thanks. I think its time for me to shut up for a while...... ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 197 Mon Feb 10, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 20:35 EST Dear Jerry, Please don't think about "shutting-up". That's the last thing in the world we should want. It's so important to keep talking about the very issues you raised. You made some very valid points and your care and concern is very apparent. Thanks for what you said. :-) You are helping to uphold the banner of the oneness of humanity by sharing your concerns and questions the way you did. It's part of the "process"! God Bless you! Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 198 Mon Feb 10, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 21:09 EST Hi Jerry, I'm with you--just looking out in the world it looks pretty dismal, racially speaking. And I'm sorry to keep harping on the same subject over and over, but the Baha'i Faith really does offer a model of racial unity which I have never seen anywhere else. You might like to go to a fireside and get to know us. (Firesides are informal get- togethers where folks can discuss things, much like what we do on GEnie, only in person.) It might give you some hope to see how Baha'is get along among themselves and with others who are not Baha'is, how we encourage each other, go out of our way to form friendships with people who are different from ourselves, etc. There's another aspect of this whole thing which has not been mentioned here that I can recall: Inter-racial marriage, an important step in forming a unified society. The Baha'i Community is the only place I know of where Inter- racial marriage is not only tolerated but encouraged in the Writings and appreciated by the believers. Many Baha'is have these marriages. We don't only have Black and White couples either, but all sorts of interesting combinations. I may be wrong, but I think this is fairly unique to our Faith, and it shows how commitment to Baha'u'llah can overcome societal taboos and help effect change. I hope you'll take advantage of any opportunities you have to meet Baha'is. I really believe it would give you some hope. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 199 Mon Feb 10, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 21:40 EST Wendy, >Inter-racial marriage, an important step in forming a unified society. The Baha'i Community is the only place I know of where Inter-racial marriage is not only tolerated but encouraged in the Writings and appreciated by the believers.< Just had to jump in with a little trivia. It is a Baha'i principle that science and religion agree. Science has shown us that marrying as far as possible outside your own gene pool creates healthier, smarter and more beautiful children with fewer chances of birth defects. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 200 Mon Feb 10, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 21:41 EST Dear Bob, You barbeque your wife? ;) Na, that had to be a typo--didn't it? Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 201 Tue Feb 11, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 00:30 EST Jerry: When I attended my first Baha'i meeting about 20 years ago, I became intrigued with the Baha'i Teachings and with the Baha'is themselves, but still categorized them as just another "love thy neighbor" group then in vogue. A lot of religious groups had a mission to bring Blacks and Whites together and, to my eyes, the Baha'is just had a more interesting package. It's quite common to mix beliefs from different sources, and I stole some of Baha'u'llah's Teachings and mixed them with others I found attractive. I was a young Black man searching for vehicles that would address the needs of my people. Moreover, I could not allow myself to get too closely identified with anything that wasn't "politically" sanctioned. These Baha'is would listen patiently to my political views and would then, in very loving ways, share their understanding of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Following my heart, I allowed myself to learn more about this "New World" that seemed so real, and the Baha'is helped me to learn. I vividly recall the act of walking to my car after "joining" the Baha'i Faith and gazing upward to ask God to forgive me if I was making a mistake. For, this Baha'i Faith was too good to be true; it not only had intellectual answers but also had the Baha'i community as living proof. Only later did I begin to discover that the real "power" came from Baha'u'llah. Now, I am joining the other Baha'is in asking you to take to heart what is being told you. It's real! I believe most people love God and have "the love of God" in their hearts. Yet, I also sincerely believe the source of our lack of compassion and racist feelings comes from our "not knowing" another way. Humanity has been living according to rules of self-preservation for thousands of years. We have been taught to think in terms of "inferior and superior". There has always been an "us vs them" view of humanity, even coming from the pulpits of religion. Even the commonly known saying "there, but for the grace of God, go I" implies a distinction between two human beings. "Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do" is applicable to your questions because these Words were spoken by One Who Teachings eventually brought about a higher standard of human conduct. In this Day, however, an even higher standard has been infused into human consciousness - the "Oneness of Mankind" - by Baha'u'llah. Now, the new standard for the world is "there, because of the grace of God, go I". "One soul in one body...the leaves of one tree and the flowers of one garden" are Teachings which will banish "foreignness" and "separateness" to the dank, dark past of human immaturity forever. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 202 Tue Feb 11, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 01:51 EST Wendy, >You barbeque your wife< I said that? I guess that's what happens when your brain goes faster than your fingers. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 203 Tue Feb 11, 1992 J.WHITLOW [JERRY] at 20:53 EST Peacemaker, You say that most people love God and have the love of God in their heart. Boy! I wish that was true. The face is that most people don't know God. And that's the whole problem. There aren't many way to know God. There is only one way....by and through Jesus Christ. Do the teachings of Baha'u'llah include Jesus Christ? If so, I need to hear more. If not, your religion is mostly talk and no power. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 204 Tue Feb 11, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 21:37 EST Hi James, Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with all of us here! They are wonderful! :) Hi Bob, That's okay, I've had a few weird typos along the way, too! ;) BTW, did I tell you I liked your cousin story--that's a great idea for opening eyes. A little humor never hurt. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 205 Tue Feb 11, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 21:44 EST Jerry: I wasn't clear enough in my previous post to you, so please allow me to elaborate further. The people of the world don't "know" that they CAN become united. They don't "know" it's even possible because the idea of "Oneness" is new to the human experience. The current ideals which govern the behavior of the majority of mankind are thousands of years old. Yet, these standards are still reinforced by the status quo as "ideal" in religion, government and economic matters. Who, then, can blame the people for acting out uncaring behaviors when they "don't know" that a New Standard for human interaction has been decreed by God? However, more importantly, this New Standard is predicated upon the purifying of man's conception of "self". In other words, "who am I?". Slavery, for example, was not eradicated by Baha'u'llah solely because it was an injustice to our fellow man. It was relegated to the past because He said the station of each human being is one of "nobility". He freed us, each one of us, from the fetters of evil that have historically been imposed by one race, by one nation, or by one "class" upon another by further removing the "veils" that prevented us from "knowing" our "true self". Therefore, no one who "seeks" to understand, and then "knows", our common nobility, no one who acknowledges that the "reality" of the human race has been elevated above racial strife, no one who believes that homelessness and hunger have been outlawed by God can revert to the "old" methods of human interaction. Once the world "knows" of Baha'u'llah, it will eventually adopt His New Standard. For, we are noble beings, crafted by the "fingers" of God and destined to one day wear on our foreheads, not the words "made in America or Japan", not "made in Africa", but "made in the image of God". James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 206 Tue Feb 11, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 21:52 EST Wendy: Thank you, again, for the kind words. But after reading your post, as well as Dan's, 3 times I concluded mine wasn't up-to-par. So, I wrote some more. This topic is so important to me. But, after reading what the Baha'is have posted, one would have to be blind not to see it's also important to all of you also. James PS. Where is Larry the Lover? Where is he? Laaarrryyy? ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 207 Tue Feb 11, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 23:10 EST Hi Jerry, In order to stay on topic, please see CAT 9 TOP 31 for information on the Baha'i View of Christ. (Weren't you in that topic for a while?) If you read it right from the beginning, you'll get some pretty good basic information. Suffice it to say, Jesus is very much a part of our Faith, and the Baha'i Writings have some of the most beautiful tributes to Christ I have ever read. Please don't be afraid to really look at the Baha'u'llah. The Bible teaches that you are not alone, that God will guide you (see Psalms 23). It says we should "test the spirits to see whether they are of God," not hide from them in fear. Jesus says, "By their fruits you shall know them," concerning false prophets. He didn't say you would be unable to tell the difference. For me and the others here, the Baha'i Faith has withstood these tests. Whether it does or not for you, only your own independent search will help you know. I will look for you over in Baha'i Christian Dialogue. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 208 Wed Feb 12, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 00:13 EST Jerry: I think Wendy beautifully addressed your statements regarding Christ and the Baha'i Faith. Of course, you may have more, many more, which you are encouraged to ask. This religion is more than a religion. It creates a classroom that will extend to the edges of the universe, if one is capable of going that far. This is the Faith for today and the future, yet it is as old as the oldest "old time religion". I, too, hope to see you in the topics Wendy suggested. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 209 Wed Feb 12, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan-Baha'i] at 21:38 EST James, Great post! All of them... It reminded me of quotation of Baha'u'llah: "God grant that the light of unity envelope the whole earth, and the seal, the Kingdom is God's, be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples." Your fellow world-citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 210 Wed Feb 12, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 21:51 EST Dan: Thanks. As I was telling Wendy, I was inspired by yours and hers. Your quote was says it ALL. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 211 Wed Feb 12, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 23:01 EST Wendy: Hi! Please E-mail your address to me because Bob Riggs mailed 3 pages of answers (too many for me to type). James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 212 Wed Feb 12, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 23:35 EST Hi James, Done, and thanks! For those who haven't the foggiest notion WHAT we're talking about, one of the Baha'i authors (of _The Apocalypse Unsealed_) answered some questions I asked him through his friend James here via GEnie E-mail, and I'm just thrilled! :) Now back to the topic.... Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 213 Thu Feb 13, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 00:11 EST James, Re: Laaarryyyy. I've been here. Absorbing. :) -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 214 Thu Feb 13, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 00:20 EST Larry: We miss your brilliance. Comment on that which you have "absorbed". You were instrumental in establishing the rules of courtesy on this BB, so don't overly concern yourself how objections you may have may affect your friends here. James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 215 Thu Feb 13, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 01:15 EST Thanks James. I'll put the finishing touches on my manifesto of racial unity :). Actually, it's an extremely troubling and painfull subject for me. I hate the discord with the passion God hates it. How is it possible to rectify the problems on a social plain without first laying bare the fear and suspicion we contain in our hearts? I had a profoundly enlightening experience on this BB in regards to this question that I will have to share with you soon. Take care, James. -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 216 Fri Feb 28, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 03:28 EST It appears that this topic has been very quiet. Maybe this will stir things up a little. Resolved: All Humanity is the same. There is a much greater diversity of genetic structure within one race than there is between races. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 217 Fri Feb 28, 1992 E.BROWN42 [athanasius] at 03:37 EST I agree. There is no such thing as "race". ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 218 Fri Feb 28, 1992 D.LEATHERS1 [Ignoro Dei] at 04:26 EST Only the Grand Prix ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 219 Sat Feb 29, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 01:14 EST Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the resurfaceing of old hatreds, prejudice, and racism. Such as the skinheads, the neo-nazis, the KKK, the various racially segregrated gangs. Is this actually occuring or is it just sensesionalism on the part of the news media. Could it also be part of an establishment Red-Herring to keep the masses minds off of the real problems of the government spending money that it doesn't have, make the rich richer, the high and rising cost of surviving, the "professional" fields whose fees are rising at a much higher rate than the overall economy. Could this be a planned exercise on the part of a minority of extremely powerful people to further entrench themselves into positions of power and aquire more wealth and power. These thoughts are not particularly my own but I have been reading them in some of the "not so underground" literature that is circulating around. I just put them out for comment. Is it possible that racism is the easiest prejudice to practice as the "enemy" is quite distinguishable, while in other forms of prejudice it is not as easy to distinguish who is "good" and who is "bad". Does anybody else have any ideas? I do admit a vested intrest in this subject. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 220 Sat Feb 29, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Marana_tha] at 16:14 EST Greetings PACMan: >Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the resurfaceing of old >hatreds, prejudice, and racism. Such as the skinheads, the neo- >nazis, the KKK, the various racially segregrated gangs. Is this >actually occuring or is it just sensesionalism on the part of the >news media. I believe Satan continually works trying to keep hatred alive so that many will persish. I also believe we should all be striving towards the removal of hatred from our hearts and our lives. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 221 Sat Feb 29, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 20:52 EST PACMan, Whenever the little piece of that pie Fran Anyone brings home doesn't quite fill the spot, s/he begins examining that pie a little closer. And it really becomes "the issue" whether that pie can be divided up so that s/he and hers/his can get more. Realistically, no one expects the powerful to give up what they control so it's only those less powerful who can be forced to do with less. And so on... That's the problem with pie analogies, they're so tangible. People forget that this is essentially a spiritual problem--not social or economic. And as we all know, any problem definition that doesn't address the root is doomed. "...Although the body politic is one family, yet because of lack of harmonious relations some members are comfortable and some in direst misery, some members are satisfied and some are hungry, some members are clothed in most costly garments and some families are in need of food and shelter. Why? Because this family lacks the necessary reciprocity and symmetry. This household is not well arranged.... Love and unity are the needs of the body politic today. Without these there can be no progress or prosperity attained. ...Science cannot cure the illness of the body politic. Science cannot create amity and fellowship in human hearts. Neither can patriotism nor racial allegiance effect a remedy....The spiritual teachings of the religion of God can alone create this love, unity and accord in human hearts. Abdu'l-Baha, _The Divine Art of Living_ pp127-128 I don't think that the media is exagerating the tension of the times although they may embellish incidents. And politicians, bandwagon aficionados, are in the business of defining problems in political terms. (Little chance of creative problem solving from that quarter.) I believe this is a ground swell of individuals trying to make sense of this madness. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 222 Sat Feb 29, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 21:13 EST Peter, "I also believe we should all be striving towards the removal of hatred from our hearts and our lives." Let me seize this opportunity to agree wholeheartedly with you. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 223 Sat Feb 29, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Marana_tha] at 22:07 EST Hi Margi: Thanks. If people could communicate to others as we do in BBS systems (where one cannot see the ohter persons color and only guess at their true nationality), we would be taking one giant step forward. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 224 Sun Mar 01, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 06:15 EST Margi, thank you very much for your reply. I quite agree that the problem is spiritual in nature and requires a changing of the value system of everyone to achieve racial unity. The point I was questioning has to do with the old (Roman Empire) axiom that "If you have problems at home, start a war someware else." It would appear that this has been used thru-out history by the ruleing class of various countries and organizations. If you are having problems within your group, get everyone fired up against another group. Your problems, lack of jobs etc., are being caused by the (Mexicans, Blacks, Native Americans, Asians, Italians, Irish, Southerners, people on welfare, Arabs, Jews, Russians) pick any group or create a new one "the Verbal Minority", "the Silent Majority","the Drug Lords", et. al. This keeps the people in your group to busy to smell the apple at the bottom of the barrel. This policy continues until a new ruleing class is occurs, then all the problems can be blamed on the last rulers. The process then starts again. As you said the problem is basically a spiritual one however it would appear that no one wants to aknowledge that the problem is themselves. As the cartoon Pogo once said, "We have met the enemy and they is us!". What I have been speaking of appears to be a tool that ruleing classes, thru out the ages, have used to keep themselves in power be it Material or Spiritual or a mixture of both. I whole hearted agree with you that if the values of man were changed this tool would no longer exist. But some time the knowledge of what may be being done is enough to make a person look and correct the situation at least within themselves. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 225 Sun Mar 01, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 13:14 EST Peter, "If people could communicate to others as we do in BBS systems... we would be taking one giant step forward." Yeah, on the BBS a person's appearance is irrelevent. In person, it's hard to remember that this "vital identifing clue" is just superficial and, in the larger picture, inconsequential. PACMan, History, as you so aptly reminded us, provides the precidence. In the past temporary solutions were used that involved de-humanizing *others*. Of course the solutions only worked within the group, you either died or suffered severe deprivation as an *other*. But if your only concern is _your own kind_, then the fate of *others* holds no interest. At this time, those stop-gap measures have caught up with us. The world is simply too interconnected for any of us to be *other*. _Your own kind_ is humankind. But we all grew up with texts that presented divisive measures as solutions (ie. war as a solution to economic depression). (shudder) We must each get past our "histories". The dawn arrives whether we sleep in or arise, and even war is televised. So we do have the option of doing nothing and letting *somebody else* devise a solution. But we all have to live with the consequences of these decisions, and we each have a responsibility to ensure that our voices are heard. Only with the assistance and mercy of God can we hope to improve ourselves and our world. Prayer and action. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 226 Sun Mar 01, 1992 P.PERCHANSKY [Marana_tha] at 14:11 EST Hello Margi: >Yeah, on the BBS a person's appearance is irrelevent. In person, >it's hard to remember that this "vital identifing clue" is just >superficial and, in the larger picture, inconsequential. Agreed. Hey I could be white for all you know <grin>. I just wish and pray color had no meaning in the world. --- Peter M. Perchansky Psalm 18:31 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 227 Sun Mar 01, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 21:20 EST Thank you for your post Margi. I have begun to feel that it goes much beyond what you speak. People are using people of "other" groups telling their people that all the problems that they are having are caused by this other group and not thru any fault of their own system of morals and ethics. This results in a "Scapegoat" memtality which then if only the "others" would do what they are supposed to we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. Let's force them to do what we think they should or lacking that eliminate them. Where did we hear all this before? What was the result? It seems that most people have never wanted to think and surely they can do no wrong. "All my problems are because of ????? not something I am doing wrong." This mind set has been used by opressors thruout history to keep those being opressed from seeing their own opression. Until people can realise that they need to look beyond the tree to see the forest and then the valley, mountain, and plain. Then take action instead of letting others control them. Things will not be getting better only worse. We need to look at the real problems not those that we are told are real. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 228 Mon Mar 02, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 18:42 EST PACMan, "We need to look at the real problems not those that we are told are real." YUP !! Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 229 Tue Mar 03, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 21:16 EST Hello Margi, When our chldren were born we had to fill out a form for the county for their birth record. In the spaces for "Mother's Race", "Father's Race", and "Child's Race" I put down HUMAN. That did cause a stir. I had to fill out another form. - I feel that the biggest problem in the good old US of A is that of Afro-American (Black) vs Euro-American (White). There is a greater problem here than between any other pair of races. If that problem could be solved then all the other racial predjudices will fall apart. The problem has two sides, there are whites that hate blacks and blacks that hate whites just as much. Each side has to give some. Whites have to give up their "inate superiority" and blacks must put aside their "suspiciousness". Racial Unity can only occur if both sides want it badly enough. - If people would just read what the Declaration of Independence says and the Preamble to the Constutition instead of trying to twist it around to their own ends. We wouldn't have had this problem in the first place. - America and American's have lost so much due to the Euro-centrict viewpoint of the leadership. Children are basically taught in school that the contribution of the European, more specificly British, is what made our country great and that other groups had only incidental influence. Look at all that we have lost. - If enough people get sick and tired of being led around by the nose then something can be done about this disease (racism). PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 230 Thu Mar 05, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 06:49 EST PACMan, The last time I heard an antedote about filling out a form w/ HUMAN as the response to 'what race' was Dec'90 at the Arizona Conference ... His name escapes me...very instrumental in establishing the "Baha'i Chair for World Peace" at UMaryland...a poet...spent many years in Lebanon Anyway He was traveling and had to fill out forms for customs (I forget which middle eastern country--not Israel--he was entering). It was a long tiring trip and he just wrote HUMAN. The officials were NOT amused. The time spent in Lebanon had trained him to be very circumspect w/ officials so when they pulled him aside for questioning, he gave short answers. ... Where were you born? Jerusalem... Ahh..You're a Palestinian...After all the questions, they decided he was an Arab, Bedoin(sp) Palestinian with US citizenship. So many labels for just a person. By trying to catagorize him based on those labels, they had missed the essentials. It's disheartening when people try to place me in a racial or ethnic box, but my ethnicity is part of who I am. A few years ago I dated a wonderful man, one of the few people I know who enjoy theme theatre marathons (ex. attending 2 productions of Romeo and Juliet and seeing Westside Story on the same day) then discussing the merits of each production over French pastry. His family had wanted to meet me and I was anxious to meet them. He had told them all about me, we had talked on the phone, and finally we were to meet. Well, his descriptions, my voice, the activities we shared, none of it had given them any indication that I'm Black. The entire evening we all felt betrayed and uncomfortable. I talked the evening over with a good friend and she was AMAZED. Not so much by the evening, but because although she and I have known each other since college and I'd told her all about him, it had never occurred to her that he was white. I just hadn't said. Neither he nor I were "unaware" of race, but in talking with others we shared the dynamic aspects of the other person that we each found so appealing. Mind you, I came to that conclusion *after* I discovered that I hadn't _said_ either. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 231 Thu Mar 05, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 21:21 EST Margi, Interesting stories! Thanks. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 232 Sat Mar 07, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 01:18 EST Hello Margi When my wife and I were married (Dade Coundy Fla. 1970) we turned a few heads. We have been married for going on 22 years now and we no longer think of ourselves as Black or White, at least until someone else brings it up. My wife has qualities that I do not have and I have qualities that she doesn't have. Together we sort of mesh and are greater than the sum of both. We have two children (20 & 19) both have left home for college now. We have tried to expose them to all the cultures that they have in them. I would like to transmit an interesting ancidote about something that happened to my daughter while she was in High School. Someone in her class came up to her, after finding out she was multi-racial, and asked her what to call her (meaning Black, White, or Native American). She replied,"Call me Navvab, that is my name." When we were first married it seemed to be fun to try to shake up the establishment so we wore "Ethnic Clothes" (Dashki & Turban and Ivy League). I must admit that when we moved closer to one another and then held hands or put arms around each other you could hear the eyeballs glaze and the teeth grind. We also had a few close calls with shotguns pointed out the windows of pick- ups at us. We also had the KKK down on us, at one time. I keep telling her that the reason that we have stayed together so long is that no one else would put up with either one of us. :^) We still get stares but it has gotten so old hat that both of us ignore them. I think that it takes a weird kind of people to make an Inter-Racial marriage work. I have found that the pressures of the Dominant Culture either tear you apart or push you together. We have been thru some very rough times with employment, housing, education, and a lot of others. Each time we have fought together and become closer. I feel sorry for those who have elected to attempt a inter-racial relationship without marriage because neither party is committed to making the relationship work. If people decide to get married do they both have the strength (bullheadedness) to unite rather than try for what might advantagious for themselves and let their partner take the fall. We have found that over the past 10-5years if one of us is attacked we both jump in sometimes rather loudly. However we also have been able to allow each other room in the relationship for our own growth. I am sorry that the gentleman involved was unable to overcome his fears and/or hangups. But like they say,"To find a Prince you have to Kiss a LOT of Frogs". Hang in there, examine the character of the other person thoroughly. Don't be afraid to let your hair down and be yourself and encourage them to be themselves. Let them know that if they, inadvertantly, offend you that you won't throw them across the room and out the door. I guess what I am trying to say is to be friends, close friends, before you start on the physical side to the relationship. If things don't work out, well there are still frogs in the pond that you haven't seen yet. Just a few thoughts from a old married man. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 233 Sat Mar 07, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 08:07 EST Pacman, Good post. Usually, an interacial marriage is seen as two people trying to escape racial prejudice (at least from the black perspective), but in most cases, an interracial marriage only focuses racial prejudice -- interracial couples are forced to consider the effects of racism even more frequently than two black people would have to. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 234 Sat Mar 07, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 15:57 EST Thank You for your compliment Kirk. Interacial marriage only intensifies existing prejudice. We get hit by prejudice from both sides. Some Afro-Americans feel hatred toward the Afro- American partner, "because they are denying their culture" and against the Euro-American, "because they are perpetuating the slave days when Masters raped Afro-American women or kept them as mistresses" or "because they are stealing from the race". Some Euro-Americans feel hatred toward the Euro-American partner, "because you are destroying racial purity" or "because you are mateing with 'less than human'". They show hatred toward the Afro-American partner,"because they corrupted the Euro-American" or "because they don't 'Know their Place'". In my opinion a Afro-American Euro-American marrage is a lightning rod for all the worst predjudices of America. It attracts flak from both sides. On the positive side a interacial marriage acts as a LIVING example to everyone of the FACT that "Racial Predjudice" is a FALSE doctrine. That in FACT it is a DISEASE that is CORRUPTING this great nation. It is a living PROOF that there is only one race, the HUMAN RACE. It is PROOF that racism is a cancer that CAN BE REMOVED, if people want to remove it, and that when it is removed the body returns to health, appreciating and celebrating the diversity of humankind, rather than condemming it. The children of these relationships almost invariably are more intellegent, more beautiful in appearance, healthier, and and have the ability to contribute more to society, as a whole. On the other side of the coin the children also have the ability to cause more deviseness than anyone else. If they achieve adulthood celebrating unity they become as lamps illuminating the world. They become the,"balm to sooth the wounds of humanity". If they achieve adulthood ashamed of themselves and their parents they cast the cloud of darkness on all the earth. Quite a responsibility that they didn't ask for. An interracial marriage carries a lot of pain but it carries more joy. If successful, it places the doctrine of racism directly in the face of everyone where its falsity is proven by example. If it isn't very obvious, by this time, I am interracially married, to the same woman, and have been for over a score of years. I am very aware that some will condemm me for this, but frankly, I don't give a Damn. I am very happy. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 235 Sat Mar 07, 1992 S.DAVIS37 [-Steve D.-] at 17:05 EST PACMan, Congratulations to you and your wife. My wife and I have had difficulties that strained our marriage, but nothing like what kooks have subjected y'all to. I hope you have many more years together and they will be happier than the first 20+. Regards, -Steve D.- ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 236 Sat Mar 07, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 17:30 EST PACMan, Inter-racial, inter-cultural, inter-religious relationships are such a challenge. Ensuring that you understand and have been understood--not just the words but their significance. I've known a number of couples who have attempted that challenge, and the commitment seems to make all the difference. But commitment makes the difference in all relationships. I agree that it takes a certain "je ne sais quoi" to see it through. Congratulations and my prayers are with you. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 237 Sat Mar 07, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 20:24 EST PACMan, What a wonderful post! Thanks. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 238 Sun Mar 08, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 01:59 EST Steve, Thank you for the congratulations. Just when it seems that it couldn't be any worse things get better. It is just a matter of waiting until they couldn't get any worse. {:^) Margi, I guess that it takes some kind of nut to walk on red hot stones and burning coals. Maybe it takes a kind of nut to stay with a interracial marriage. Keep Kissing Frogs. My best wishes go to you both. Peace and long life Live long and prosper. PACMan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 239 Sat Apr 04, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 16:53 EST Hello All, Found the message below on the "Harlem (NYC) BBS", thought you might find interesting. I wrote Mr. Fletcher on GEnie expressing my interest. =============================================== #116 5 24 Mar 92 21:55:38 From: Lance Fletcher To: All Subj: CONFERENCE ON TELECOMMUNICATIONS & ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT I am a trustee of The City Club of New York and Chairman of its Economic Development Committee. The reason I am posting this message is that I am currently planning a conference to occur in June that will deal with the economic development implications of recent developments in telecommunications technology. We are particularly interested in exploring what possibilities and opportunities are opened up for minority business and small business development by such things as BBSs and other devices that link computers with telephones. If you are interested in participating in any way, or have ideas about what such a conference should deal with or who should be involved, please contact me. I can be reached by phone (until 4-1-92) at 212-662-6619. After 4-1-92 at 201-626-5777. My CompuServe address is 71700,715. On GEnie I am L.FLETCHER. You can also leave replies here, but I am not sure at this point how often I will be logging on here. * quoted from HARLEM H.U.D.C. BBS (Harlem Urban Development Corp.) 212-870-4135 ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 240 Sat Apr 04, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 16:58 EST Greetings Everyone, Here's an announcement for a new symposium series we're having monthly in NYC: ========================================= SYMPOSIUM FOR THE HEALING OF RACISM Saturday, April 11th 1:00-6:00 PM Baha'i Center (NYC) 53 East 11th Street, between Broadway & University "Racism runs deep, it infects the hearts of both White and Black Americans since without conscious, deliberate, and sustained effort, no one can remain unaffected by its corrosive influence, both groups must realize that such a problem can neither easily nor immediately be resolved"- -from: "The Vision of Race Unity" (raceunit.zip, file area #11) All are invited to participate who are sincere in their commitment to heal the wounds of racism. These monthly gatherings will provide a safe space for us to share our experience, our pain, our hope and strength. We ask that you come open to listen with generousity and compassion, we are all beginners in this area. EACH SESSION WILL CONSIST OF: * Group discussions * Musical Entertainment * Prayer and light refreshments For more information call: Laura Gabriel- 212-496-8308 Janice Smith- 212-756-3500 FREE ADMISSION = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I'll let you all know how this symposium turns out. Lend us your prayers of support, NYC needs race healing! BTW, the "Vison of Race Unity" statement is available for downloading in the R&E library, file #893. It only takes a minute to DL so it wont cost you much and it's priceless, IMHOP. :-) Your fellow world citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 241 Thu Apr 16, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 23:51 EDT Today is the 130th Anniversary of the Emancipation of the Slaves in Washington, D.C. This selection from _Paris Talks_ is offered in memory of those souls who experienced slavery. The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord. If you meet those of different race and colour from yourself, do not mistrust them and withdraw yourself into your shell of conventionality, but rather be glad and show them kindness. Think of them as different coloured roses growing in the beautiful garden of humanity, and rejoice to be among them. _Paris Talks_ pp 53 Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 242 Fri Apr 17, 1992 J.WILLIAM180 [Peacemaker] at 00:31 EDT Margi: Thank you! James ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 243 Fri Apr 17, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [WENDY] at 00:47 EDT Thank you Margi, I rejoice to be with you! Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 244 Fri Apr 17, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 04:44 EDT Margi, Thanks for reminding us of this blessed historical event. This selection from _Paris Talks_ is offered as a prayer for the healing of all those souls who suffered, and still suffer, from slavery. "The love which exists between the hearts of believers is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the waves of one sea, this love will make them all the stars of one heaven and the fruits of one tree. This love will bring the realization of true accord, the foundation of real unity." -Abdu'l-Baha, _Paris Talks_ 180-181 Your fellow world citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 245 Sun Apr 19, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 20:36 EDT topic mark ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 246 Thu Apr 30, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 07:16 EDT Hi All, So, the police in the Rodney King case have been acquitted. The street violence has begun. What can we do to "work through" this situation? How do we turn this into a positive? What "lessons" do you see =us= learning or getting out of this? How 'bout yourself, is there a personal lesson here? Working for a better world, Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 247 Thu Apr 30, 1992 K.DARLING1 [Kirk] at 19:00 EDT Margi, The street rioting in LA tonight is not like the anger of the late sixties. Grown men, family men, were in the streets back then. Most black people I've talked to were shocked but not surprised. I would say only that having served on a felony jury myself, I know that there is a lot that happens which onlookers don't realize. The tape leaves me with some real questions as to whether any of those men should be allowed to wear a police uniform. However, I don't know how the law and the charges were explained to the jury. I don't know all the evidence which was presented. I don't know the coversation that took place in the jury chambers. Apparently, from what at least three of the jurors have said in interviews today, the fact that the other two black men arrested with King weren't harmed was an important factor in convincing the jury that it was not a purely racial issue. It's a grave and terrible thing to rule on a man's life -- it is often easier to let the things done remain the things done. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 248 Thu Apr 30, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 20:43 EDT Kirk, That about sums it up: >shocked but not surprised. OK Where do we go from here? Baltimore has been running "sensitivity sessions", town meetings and other forums to help diffuse tensions and reassure people it can't/won't happen here. All the public officials (especially the police, school administration and those holding elected office) have made themselves available. And tomorrow the sun will rise... So where do we go from here? Every time something "shocks but doesn't surprise" we use the same familiar formulas. I feel as if I'm caught on the 'Race Relations in America': not the biggest or best roller coaster in the park, but it will take your breath away (it's so emotionally draining, time- consuming, life-threatening). Careful, once ridden it's sure to lure you back. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 249 Thu Apr 30, 1992 C.TOFANI1 [Carol] at 21:35 EDT The following is from a book I recently received entitled, "5 Minutes for World Peace.. Forever". The book contains meditations for each day. " Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." Martin Luther King, Jr. "At some level I know that every person in this entire world is my family. I am opening more and more to this realization and allowing myself to feel this connection deep within me. I am holding my world family gently in my heart today. I am sending thoughts of peace and love to my world family today." Now, more than ever we need to visualize world peace!! Let's send our thoughts of love and peace to all our brothers and sisters! Peace, now, please! Carol ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 250 Thu Apr 30, 1992 W.PIKE [PACMan] at 22:27 EDT Salutations Margi & Kirk, One thing that most people seen to forget is that in the current system of "Justice?" is one in which the defence is required to use everything that they can to get their client found not guilty, even if the client has told them that they are guilty as sin. One of the things that was brought up in passing was the impression that the defence depicted Mr. King as an animal with superhuman strength. Does that remind you of anything regarding the racist stereotypes of a Afro-American male. Until the question of Racial Predjudice is solved blood is going to run in the streets and it will be a long hot summer. The solution is so simple, treat all humans as humans. A Christian nation refusing to follow the simplest teaching of their spiritual leader. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!" Peace and Unity PACMan @....( ^^) ( ^^) ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 251 Thu Apr 30, 1992 C.TOFANI1 [Carol] at 22:39 EDT Well said PACMan. Visualize peace, think peace, pray for peace! Carol ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 252 Thu Apr 30, 1992 R.PARRISH5 [Bob] at 23:29 EDT Margi, >That about sums it up: >shocked but not surprised. >OK Where do we go from here? Who know? I think that what we are seeing is a symptom of a deeper problem. Racism is and has been alive and well here for many, many years. The civil rights acts of the 60's lured many into thinking that the problem was gone. Obviously, it's not. Here is a little something that will tell you if you have a problem, how severe it is and what to do about it; Invite an African-American family over to your house for dinner. Easy huh? How many of us do this? I have heard a lot of people say that the violence in LA will hurt Black progress, "they" shouldn't have reacted this way, this will affect how "they" are perceived in the future. Too much "they" and not enough "we." If I as a white man am a member of the oppressors, then I occupy that station and cannot be truly free until I am no longer a member of the "oppressors." The same holds true for the oppressed. If there is no equality then I am not equal either. It must be a collective "we" that addresses this problem. "We" as in all of humanity, mankind, etc. Make new friends. Invite them over for dinner. Have fun. Eat good food. I think for the most part, it is that easy. Or difficult. Bob ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 253 Fri May 01, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 01:28 EDT Margi, Bob, Kirk, Carol , Pacman and All, Greeting! When I saw the footage of Rodney King being beaten I felt physically ill. When I saw the people violently acting out their rage and frustration on the streets of L.A. I felt sick again. When I saw the pain and sorrow of the black community leaders I felt the anguish of knowing the inadequacy of my personal response to this crisis. Oh Lord what can we do? I will join you all in prayer for healing tonight. I'm now aware more than ever of the validity of these words from the first paragraph of the "Vison of Race Unity": THE VISION OF RACE UNITY Racism is the most challenging issue confronting America. A nation whose ancestry includes every people on earth, whose motto is E pluribus unum, whose ideals of freedom under law have inspired millions throughout the world, cannot continue to harbor prejudice against any racial or ethnic group without betraying itself. Racism is an affront to human dignity, a cause of hatred and division, a disease that devastates society. Notwithstanding the efforts already expended for its elimination, racism continues to work its evil upon this nation. Progress toward tolerance, mutual respect, and unity has been painfully slow and marked with repeated setbacks. The recent resurgence of divisive racial attitudes, the increased number of racial incidents, and the deepening despair of minorities and the poor make the need for solutions ever more pressing and urgent. To ignore the problem is to expose the country to physical, moral, and spiritual danger. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "the Vision of Race Unity, America's Most Vital and Challenging Issue" is available in the GEnie R&E file library, #893. If you haven't already read it I urge you to do so. Love and Harmony, Your fellow World Citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 254 Fri May 01, 1992 L.SCHWARTZ8 [larry] at 07:38 EDT >Make new friends. Invite them over for dinner. Have fun. Eat >good food. I think for the most part, it is that easy. Or >difficult. Excellent point, Bob. -larry ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 255 Fri May 01, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 19:10 EDT Carol, PACMan, Dan: >Visualize peace, think peace, pray for peace! And perhaps our actions will promote peace. Kirk, You mentioned the difference you saw between the people involved in the street violence of the '60's and today. Based on news footage, I saw a difference also, then the "rioters" were black; today the "rioters" also include non- blacks. The ages seem the same. I see just folks looting food and pampers. Young men destroying property and threatening people. People generally have more guns than they did years ago, and those with the guns, are more willing (per Mayor Bradley) to kill. Bob, >Too much "they" and not enough "we". That's been our problem as Americans. We don't seem to know that "we" is us all. As soon as a problem is defined as affecting a certain group disproportionately, it is that group's problem. Never mind that a disproportionate representation may mean that instead of the 12 percent of general population it's 25 percent. We forget that other 75 percent. How can WE have a prayer of solving our problems if we can't accept that the problems are in fact OURS. I agree that we need to experience diversity in our own lives so that we know the humanity of those different from ourselves. It's a start. Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 256 Fri May 01, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 23:17 EDT Friends, I just find it all very ironic that the solutions were given to these problems nearly 150 years ago, and we still cling to our old divisive ways. How can we stop the hurt? My heart is oppressed tonight as I see what we are doing to each other. It just all feels so sad. Abdu'l-Baha warned sometime before his passing in 1921: "This question of the union of the white and the black is very important, for it if is not realized, erelong great difficulties will arise, and harmful results will follow." "If this matter remaineth without change, enmity will be increased day by day, and the final result will be hardship and may end in bloodshed." This is only a small sample of the many writings concerning racism found in the Baha'i books. The book I quoted from, _The Advent of Divine Justice_ was written by Shoghi Effendi (here he quoted his grandfather, Abdu'l-Baha) in 1939. That's 53 years ago he was educating the Baha'is on this problem! The issue of racism was given 30 pages in this book, out of a total of 91. It has been a central theme among Baha'is for all these years and probably many people have been influenced by it, but I can't help but feel frustrated tonight that so many more obviously have not. Are we being too nice? Do we need to do more, say more? Probably. Please forgive my ranting, but my frustration level is pretty high. I just felt the need to say something about these things from my heart. I do appreciate you all so much, and this forum where we can express some of our feelings. God bless you all. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 257 Fri May 01, 1992 C.TOFANI1 [Carol] at 23:49 EDT Wendy, I feel the same frustration. We must DO something! There has to be something positive coming from all this. Maybe we are learning (albeit the hard way) that skin color doesn't matter. That we MUST learn to love one another. There are some positive signs. I heard of groups of students organizing peaceful protests, and police officers signing statements to the effect that they believed those officers were guilty! But still, it seems we think in terms of us and them. HOW do we get it straight that there ain't no us and them? Just one big US! Still working for peace, Carol ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 258 Sat May 02, 1992 M.CLARKE9 [Margi.C] at 02:37 EDT Wendy, We've been promised the establishment of heaven on earth. God's will be done even if we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into recognizing that we'd be better off building paradise. I guess people really don't =know= what's in their best interest, but isn't it apparent what clearly isn't?! All, How do you feel about making a statement by staying home Monday? Prayer, positive action Working for a better world Margi ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 259 Mon May 25, 1992 R.LYNCH16 [Usul] at 06:30 EDT Dear Friends, I would like to conduct what Bahai's call a deepening, a deepening is nothing more than studying the sacred text in order to gain a deeper understanding of it. (get it, deepening <G>). Since the subject of this topic is racism this is what we shall deepen on. I will take passages from the Baha'i Holy text and place them on the bbs, and toghether we can gain a deeper understanding of what true brotherhood means, and how we can attain it. Will do my first posting after I wake up, as it is now VERY late, and I'm tired. Bye for now, Usul. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 260 Mon May 25, 1992 C.TOFANI1 [Carol] at 10:46 EDT Usul, I'm listening.... ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 261 Mon May 25, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 13:44 EDT Usul, So am I (for a change!)... Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 262 Mon May 25, 1992 R.LYNCH16 [Usul] at 14:40 EDT There are no whites and blacks before God. All colors are one, and that is the color of srvitude to God. Scent and color are not important. The heart is important. If the heart is pure, white or black or any color makes no difference. God does not look at colors; he looks at the hearts. He whose heart is pure is better. He whose character is better is more pleasing. He who turns more to the Abha' Kingdom is more advanced. Abdu'l-Baha'. The Promulagation of Universal Peace Page 44. ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 263 Mon May 25, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 18:05 EDT Usul, Welcome to the topic! Looking forward to your next post here. Your fellow World Citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 264 Mon May 25, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 20:01 EDT Usul, Thanks for the quote. I would just explain the meaning of Abha used in that quote. It means "All-Glorious" and refers to the Kingdom of God and sometimes to the next life we pass to after death. Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 265 Tue May 26, 1992 DANIEL.WOLD [Dan] at 18:07 EDT Wendy and Usul, Recently I picked up a book called "The Power of Unity". It's a compilation prepared by Bonnie Taylor of the National Race Unity Committee. The National Race Unity Committee ae the ones who prepared the "Vision of Race Unity" statement at the request of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the U.S. It's a wonderful book. Many times I go to it for my Baha'i writings to meditate on during the course of the day. Tonight my eye fell on this quote from the section called "Humanity's Common Bonds": "Illumine and hallow your hearts; let them not be profaned by the thorns of hate or the thistles of malice. Ye dwell in one world, and have been created through the operation of one Will. Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love." -Baha'u'llah I know that if I can just remember to carry these words with me in my heart and allow them to tranform my relations with everyone I'll be doing part of my job in healing racism. Your fellow World Citizen, Dan ------------ Category 25, Topic 2 Message 266 Wed May 27, 1992 W.SCOTT23 [Wendy] at 02:22 EDT Dan, Thanks for sharing. The only way we'll get rid of racism is by personally accepting responsibility for whatever part we might play. These sorts of meditations do help us become more aware of our oneness and our spiritual natures and put us on the right track. Great reminder. :) Love and peace, Wendy--->-@ ------------